 Poster: A snowHead
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Ok, kinda a wierd one this.
Do we ever become the skier we want to be?
I want to be the best skier in the world, as i improve i can ski faster, and faster and faster.
The faster i ski, the greater control i need.
The greater control i need, the tighter and more precise my ski boots need to be.
The tighter and more precise my ski boots need to be, the less comfortable they'll be.
How quickly will i progress?
If my boots fit well, i will progress quickly, as my ski boot enables me to control the ski better, it exposes the repetitive mistakes i make and enables me to work on improving as a skier. As i improve as a skier, i ski more quickly and have more control. I will continue to improve and continue to ski more quickly. I now ski quickly but am afraid to ski any faster because i don't feel in control at this speed. I need new boots that fit more tightly, so as i can continue to ski faster and faster in control. My new boots enable me to ski faster because they are tight and precise. My feet feel better if i undo the boots when i stop skiing because they need to be so tight to control my speed.
Now, form an orderly queue. 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 22-04-07 11:17; edited 3 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Firstly there's a fundamental point to this:
Back in the mid-1970s the engineer father of a champion freestyle skier called Marion Post (I think his name was Daniel Post) did some experimentation on the precision of ski boots.
He created a prototype ski boot* that essentially transmitted any side-to-side movement of the knee to the edges of the ski. The result was a very high ski boot which clasped the lower leg so precisely that even top-line competitive skiers found it impossible to use.
It was too precise. So ... what do you mean by:
"The greater control i need, the tighter and more precise my ski boots need to be."
I don't think so!
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* The boot was ultimately de-tuned and designed by Porsche Design for the Austrian ski boot maker Kastinger: the 'Kastinger Porsche'. A stunning-looking shell, but it did not make it, commercially.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Because something clasps higher up the leg and therefore transmits the lateral forces more quickly, does not mean it fits precisely. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't know what you're expecting your equipment to achieve, but the money's far better invested in ski instruction and training.
The precision of a ski boot's fit is important, but the 'ultimate' transmission of movements of the lower leg or foot is not a desirable thing. The late days of leather (or plastic-coated leather) ski boots arguably preserved an element of ankle control in skiing that is now lost. Some would argue that this ankle control enhanced the subtlety of how a ski's edges can be controlled - at least on a smooth stretch of snow, free of bumps or deeps.
An all-plastic-shelled ski boot is arguably quite a crude device.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hertz rent-a-quote,
lots of argument here - what do you believe?
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So our World Cup, Stiffer, higher, more precise fitting ski boots don't help the user control their speed? Skiing hasn't become faster since the introduction of plastic boots? People whom wan't to ski faster should use leather ski boots? You really should think a little sometimes before just trying to be contrary.
Now how do i spell.................................
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
Hertz rent-a-quote,
lots of argument here - what do you believe? |
I believe that ski boot design has made virtually no progress in the past 20 years, in terms of making ski technique more interesting or fulfilling.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There is an element of truth in this.
If I ski with my lower buckles completely undone I can feather the edge easier using a lateral ankle movement.
With the lower buckles done up tight it gives me a stronger edge hold at speed by initiating through ankles, knees, then hip, but the feathering and subtlety is lost.
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Hertz rent-a-quote, Have you ever seen a plastic ski boot? The above statement is.....................ahhh, leave it. You're so right there David.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hertz rent-a-quote,
in that case why do you think these points are arguable - are you open to changing your mind, or perhaps that the points are not yet proven?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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but the oxymoron is that I often have to take my intermediate/advanced clients through the loose clog stage in order for them to feel a lateral ankle movement, before tightening everything up again so that they are aware of what it is they are supposed to be trying to recreate in a tight boot
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, i think you need to cut out the Ketamine.
You've gone all philosophical about boots.
They are boots for Godsake!
And I think your first premise is wrong: I don't want to be the best skier in the world, and I don't want to ski faster and faster.
I just want to have fun. I have fun if I'm with friends and I'm comfortable.
That's all I ask of my boots: please be comfortable.
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You know it makes sense.
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Jonpim, Just a thought! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Jonpim, What you say touch's on aspects of the points that I made in the 'March of the Zookeepers thread' http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=25492 that SZK decided not to respond to.
I think he's got his wooden spoon out and is on a bit of a wind-up on both threads!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Jonpim,
Maybe not the best skier in the world (like that could ever happen ) but the best skiier I can be - that does mean being able to go a bit faster, tackling a wider range of terrain, being in total control - and yes, having fun and being comfortable. I like these debates on boots - I bought a pair on my 2nd week and gave up on them a few years later. I've had varying problems with rentals but do wonder whether I am putting comfort too high on the agenda?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, Not me Governa'. No i had a meeting with a couple of race Trainers this morning. We were talking about the evolution of skiers. How there is no way when we were learning to ski, that we would have suffered the kind fit our boots now offer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Megamum, .....there is no way when we were learning to ski, that we would have suffered the kind fit our boots now offer. |
you mean the amount of pain?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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What doesn't help is having feet in buckets of sponge (which tends to be the problem with rental boots, and many other models that surround the anatomy in mush.) The foot and ankle need to be enclosed in a shell and inner that may - yes - require some days' conditioning of the flesh and skin.
However, the point that veeight makes is fundamental.
To put this in some kind of context, compare and contrast the skier's control with that of the surfer, using naked feet to control a much large deck.
Surfers don't get into debates about boots!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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holidayloverxx, No, i have no pain. I have no feeling so i can't tell if there's any pain!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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As I say, invest the money and plenty of time with an inspired ski teacher. No fancy boots or high-precision fit required.
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holidayloverxx,
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do wonder whether I am putting comfort too high on the agenda?
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I think comfort must be quite crucial - after all, there's nothing worse than painful feet (speaks one who suffers when she occasionally goes out in a pair of high heels). At my level - just beginning I would def. put comfort over performance because I don't need the performance. But even if you do, wouldn't it spoil an expensive holiday - or even your day job if you work in the industry, to have boots that weren't comfortable to wear. My point is that if you have don't have difficult feet, is it possible to get comfort and fit and performance without the incrdedible level of service that the SZK's and CEMs etc provide, and how many skiiers would notice the difference between an averagely fitted boot and their custom level of service. (mind you that's not to say that I wouldn't pay any of  's bootfitters a visit if I had the opportunity just for the experience, but I don't know if they could make me ski better or get my boots to fit any better) - in my other question on the other thread I make this point too.
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Megamum, My aim i not just to get your boots to fit comfortably, but to help improve you as a skier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Surely precise does not equal excessively tight? This precise v. comfort debate is a false dichotomy. I bought a pair of custom fit liners this season; they fit my feet precisely but there is no excessive pressure anywhere. Even though the liners are the most precise fit I've ever had, they're also the most pain free. I'm much more comfortable in my boots which I believe makes me a more relaxed (and therefore better?) skier.
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Megamum,
The worst rental I had was in Breck - day one I bruised my ankle bone (or at least it felt like that) and I coudln't bear the boot against my ankle, lost a days skiing and changed boots, so yes pain was not good. I do think though though that if I had a pair of properly fitted boots that woudl not compress my ankles or squash my toes it woudl be a good thing, perhaps making me feel more at one with the skis (god that's getting a bit new-agey, sorry )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, so I go back to my point in the other thread - can a boot always be made to fit better, and could you make even me ski better? Do you have a mechanism for measuring if my boots fit or do you have to rely on what I tell you - I think my boots fit OK, do you have a mechanism by which you could concur or otherwise?
I can understand a top level skier noticing subtle differences, but me and my crude skill level I wonder? For example would boots fitted by you (or our other boot fitters) have stopped my knee from twisting this year or at least made it less likely.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, That's the Goal, would you have got on ok with the boots you now have during your early skiing days?
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holidayloverxx, I sprung for boots this year - they were only £140 and I spent 3 hours in Skee Tex with the chap until we both thought they fitted - I had a great holiday and no boot problems. Even though I only go once a year I think they are worth having vs. an expensive holiday in poor fitting and uncomfortable boots
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You know it makes sense.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| rob@rar, That's the Goal, would you have got on ok with the boots you now have during your early skiing days? |
No, I think I would have found the flex was far too stiff to be able to use sensibly while I was an inexperienced skier, even though they are by no means a top end boot (Nordica Beast 12).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Having skied in everything from lace-up leather boots (inner and outer laces) and the world's most successful clipped leather boots (Henke, Swiss made), through a whole host of plastic-shelled boots (including the extraordinary Hanson boots from the US in the mid-1970s) and the unique Nava boot-binding system ...
... I'd say that the Salomon SX91 rear-entry (1984) with two-clip closure and flex control remains the greatest piece of boot design ever created. For a high proportion of people it achieved a brilliant combination of fit, comfort and control. It was superbly practical and ergonomic.
The sliding flex control of the SX91 was pure design genius. The bottom clip at the rear memorised the tightness from one day to another. The part-release of the top clip achieved an unparalleled level of walking comfort. Salomon did 6 years initial design work to achieve the imperfect SX90 that preceded it, and a further 6 years to perfect the SX91.
The key patents of the Salomon SX91 have now expired (I think) so it'll be interesting to see if a manufacturer evolves the design into something even greater by relaunching it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hertz rent-a-quote, Hmm, i wonder if a black and white telly will offer me a better picture with all these HD signals flying around getting confused in the air.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Comparing advances in TV technology with the evolution of ski boot design is a folly.
A low proportion of ski boot design has any purpose of achieving improvements to the performance of the device - it's just geared to shelf appeal. Aesthetics. Consumers are wisely driven by aesthetics when choosing a new TV (picture), not necessarily when choosing a new ski boot. It's what goes on inside the boot that matters, as a function of what controls its envelopment, closure and flex
The Salomon SX91 and the Look Nevada turntable binding (another piece of pure engineering genius in its original form from the late 1950s and early 1960s) are the two classic French ski products, in my view. Refinement, function and simplicity are everything.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hertz rent-a-quote wrote: |
However, the point that veeight makes is fundamental.
To put this in some kind of context, compare and contrast the skier's control with that of the surfer, using naked feet to control a much large deck.
Surfers don't get into debates about boots! |
Quite true - surfers are more like snowboarders. They get into debates about which type of cannabis is best!
Only kidding.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hertz rent-a-quote, I have an old copy of The Good Ski Guide with an article that questions Salomon's wisdom in abandoning rear entry boots.
As regards turntable bindings, I prefer a binding that clicks shut. Look turntable bindings never seemed to do that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Hmm, i wonder if a black and white telly will offer me a better picture with all these HD signals flying around getting confused in the air. |
The less makeup I see on the short-focus bint, the better I can indulge my fantasies.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Your Boots will never fit! |
Sorry mate, you did too good a job with my boots then. They definitely fit. At the moment!
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| Hertz rent-a-quote wrote: |
| Look Nevada turntable binding (another piece of pure engineering genius in its original form from the late 1950s and early 1960s) are the two classic French ski products, in my view. Refinement, function and simplicity are everything. |
And just think if you combined a Look turntable heel with a Marker toepiece on a lightweight plate you would have a touring binding with the performance of a downhill binding...
You could probably sell oodles to Skandies in Cham (along with rucksacks that hold two ice-axes).
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Can I take the thickie batton here and ask (as one whose hase skiied in rear entry boots and is still not convinced that my buckle ones are any better) how on a buckle boot that the ankle flex is adjusted a la the flex control David spoke about is adjusted - other than faffing around with the buckles all day - thickie batton now out there! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stevew, I'm not sure i'm reading this right. What are points you need covering. We can start another thread on ski boot flex.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, when skiing in in rear entry boots I was told that when skiing steeper slopes to reduce the flex in the boot by using the slider - as I said thickie baton is here!
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FAQ
