 Poster: A snowHead
|
This might be a dumb question, or it might not! I've been skiing for a good few years now. Not an expert, but would say level 7 on the Snot and Rhinitis scale. Now my fisrt boots were Salomon Force something or others, nice and close fitting but with fairly soft flex. Then 3 years ago I changed to XWave 9s which were a fair bit stiffer, and I think aimed at level 7 to 8 skiers or something.
Anyway, my question this. I've just bought the Tecnica Magma Hiperfit. S&R rate this as a level 8 to 10 boot. The flex seems on a par with that of the XWave9 - maybe slightly stiffer on the stiff setting, but I think it can be sofened with an adjuster to 100. But I found the fit of the Magma much better when I tried on in resort. Is it possible to be "over-booted" by a boot sold as an expert/race boot even with similar flex to what I'm used to? Or is a lot of it a money/marketing thing - i.e. market a boot as expert/race and charge £100 extra for it?
On another note - remember I said my XWave9s had been uncomfortable? Well they're not so bad now the linings have packed down more, but I found out last week that I was in a shell size that was too small and it has taken all this time for the liners to pack down enough to give me some degree of almost bearable comfort.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
petemillis, who says your shell was too small?
Do a quick test - take the liner out of your shell, and put your foot in. There should be at the most 2 fingers gap between your heel and the back of the shell. If it's more than three fingers, it's too big. Less than 1 finger, and too small.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
petemillis, I understand that the top boots in the Technica range uses different plastics so that the lateral stiffness of the boot is high but the forward flex is lower and more progressive, this might account for the difference you are feeling. Also - a more general but related question for the boot gurus - is ability the ultimate factor in deciding what flex of boot you put people in? I know better skiers are more dynamic but an 'advanced' skier who weighs 8 stone will surely need a boot that is softer than an 'intermediate' skier who weighs 17 stone. It seems wrong for shops (and often boot reviews in magazines) to be so focussed on ability when to me other factors seem as important
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
BGA, I'm no expert, but weight and ability to flex the ankle also come into play.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
My son just bought some new boots and fitted by CEM. He is 6'3" 9 stone and qualified instructor. He has incredibly narrow feet 95mm and size 8. He is in the Atomic R-Tech Ti boot. Even though it is their World Cup shell, fortunately they make it in 150, 130 & 100 flex. He needs the fit & performance of an expert/race boot, but the flex of an intermediate boot. 100 flex is perfect for him. Big thanks to CEM & Bartletts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Spyderman wrote: |
| My son just bought some new boots and fitted by CEM. He is 6'3" 9 stone and qualified instructor. He has incredibly narrow feet 95mm and size 8. He is in the Atomic R-Tech Ti boot. Even though it is their World Cup shell, fortunately they make it in 150, 130 & 100 flex. He needs the fit & performance of an expert/race boot, but the flex of an intermediate boot. 100 flex is perfect for him. Big thanks to CEM & Bartletts. |
Is he anorexic- 6ft 3 9 stones.  I 'm around 15 stone at that height and not that lardy
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On the same theme, I presume it's better to have boots that are slightly too soft rather than boots that are slightly too stiff. Is that correct?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
BGA - it's strange but actually it's the opposite - the bigger you are the slightly softer you need the boot (basically if you weigh 95+ kilos of lard you are already working the ski). If you weight 50kgs you need all the forces you create to travel to the ski - this is why big WC DH'ers loved the softish but progressive flex of the Rachile flexon.
How do you decide?
Well there is no benchmark or guideline - but ask your self these question and ensure you let your boot fitter know.
1) Be truthful about your technique/skill - if you boast you'll end up with the wrong boot for your needs!
2) Where do you ski - 'on' or 'off piste' - 'short' or 'long turns'? (this is why multi condition boots are the latest marketing trend - encompassing all skiers)
3) Are you a 'feel' or a 'bash and grunt' skier?
4) Comfort or performance?
5) Age and frequency
6) Do you want a boot for your ability 'now' or 'later' - buying for 'later' or which you can ski into often reduces the skiers learning curve.
All the above will build a mental picture for the bootfitter to work from - by measuring and examining/evaluating your foot he will build a 'fit picture' now put the two together and Bob's your Uncle.
Marc gledhill - I would agree with you, you are more than likely to ruin a holiday with stiff boots than soft ones - besides it might help you find the center of your boots
Hope this helps
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
marc gledhill, I think so but am no expert. General advice seems to go with a softer flex for off piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Wear The Fox Hat, I said the shell was too small. This is what happened - when I bought the boots a couple of years ago I told the shop I was a UK 9.5 with a fairly wide foot. I only tried on one boot at the bloke's suggestion, which was the XWave 9. It felts really tight at first, and even after heat moulding it felt really tight. They have only just become barely comfortable after a few weeks of skiing in them. Out of interest I just whipped the liners out this morning, stuck my foot in and I can just get one finger down the back of my heel (and my fingers aren't that fat). Also, although they are bearable across the front now, I still find them uncomfortable. And the weird thing is, all my shoes and trainers are a UK 10. And I reckon I bought a boot that was too small - a 27-27.5 shell should be the right size for a UK size 9 or so.
As for me, well I'm 12 stone (just over), 5'10.5", and have no trouble flexing a boot of 100 to 120. From the sizing, flex rating, etc, the Tec Diablo Magmas seem ideal (especially as they've cost be less than £180) but they seem to be aimed at top level skiers - which I wouldn't consider myself to be by any stretch of the imagination. I know it's certainly a boot I won't outgrow - but I had this feeling in my head that being aimed at top level skiers it might be too much for me, but can't think of any reason why. I like to feel the piste, I'm a pretty fit young 40, is the top level description just a way of getting more money for some boots and is there really much difference between a £350 boot and a £250 boot?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 6-03-07 9:58; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
dan100,
He is fit and healthy, but looks like a matchstick with the wood scraped off.
He did present CEM with a bit of a challenge.
I was 10 stone when i was 17 like him, now 6'0" and 14 stone. that's what married life and a good cook does. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
petemillis,
| Quote: |
is there really much difference between a £350 boot and a £250 boot?
|
Yes £ 100.
In terms of cost to produce the boot? NO
I think of it as supply and demand, if you can make something more desirable, market it as a premium product, charge 100 quid more, yet cost you no more to make, makes good business sense.
Buy an A6 Audi with a 1.9 engine for £20,000 or the same Audi with a 4.2 V8 Turbo for £ 65,000. Which one are they making more money out of? I'd still like the RS6 though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Spyderman, as regards your car explanation on cost, it is not necessarily as you claim. From the mill standard cars are by far cheaper to manufacture than special editions such as RS6. The materials on the body, chassis and motor add to the cost as does the supplementary manufacturing. I admit they don't make the the price differential completely, but I have to wonder whether it is actually such a good business to do the "expensive" and "exclusive" rather than standard.
I am not sure how this works exactly with ski boots, but let's take an ordinary Hugo Boss suit, as this is perhaps more understandable and comparable. It takes a an hour to make the whole suit in a factory in Hungary. It is all machine made, glued and detailing is poor. Then, take a Baldessarini suit, same company owns it. The amount of detailing, time spent in hand sewing parts of the suit and the materials mean that you will HAVE to charge more, a lot more, to make the money. And, of course, you can add the exclusivity tag as well. I could take any suit maker to make the same claim - CC Collection is not near the same quality as Corneliani Sartoriale Collection.
I only can assume that the same applies to ski boots. It would be a pretty unique market if top-end products manufacturing costs were the same as the low-end ones...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Spyderman wrote: |
Don't tell us that your boots are Orange.  |
No, I've gone green now. (since the Good Friday Bootfitting Agreement)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
demos,
Ok, maybe not such a great example using the RS6.
Wallace womens clothing, their costs for clothing are 13% of their sales.
Jaguar premium car speaker upgrade £900 retail, £30 cost.
Aga cooker costs £400 to make.
Marketting has a lot to do with it, it is perceived value.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| tailskidder wrote: |
| The Salomon X-Wave 8, 9 and 10 were exactly the same shell, flex etc - it was the stiffness of the liners tongue and how the cuff was attached (bolted) to the clog. |
Is that true?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
BGA - it's strange but actually it's the opposite - the bigger you are the slightly softer you need the boot (basically if you weigh 95+ kilos of lard you are already working the ski). If you weight 50kgs you need all the forces you create to travel to the ski - this is why big WC DH'ers loved the softish but progressive flex of the Rachile flexon.
|
Interesting. This goes against all the advice I've ever been given by bootfitters, ski biomechanics experts and ski instructors. An oft discussed topic in Bend ze Knees is the importance of ankle flex in skiing, but if you put a light person in a stiff boot as you seem to suggest then they will not be able to flex the boot forwards, will not be able to work the ski and will presumably have a tendency to get stuck more in the back seat as a result.
| Quote: |
6) Do you want a boot for your ability 'now' or 'later' - buying for 'later' or which you can ski into often reduces the skiers learning curve.
|
This also seems contrary to other advice I've heard. I'm not sure putting a skier in a boot which is too stiff for their ability level/strength would reduce the learning curve? I'd of thought that the combination of discomfort and inability to flex the boot would hold back their skiing development. Surely it's better to change their boots and skis to match their skills as they develop. More expensive obviously but that's life
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
demos,
| Quote: |
| I only can assume that the same applies to ski boots. It would be a pretty unique market if top-end products manufacturing costs were the same as the low-end ones... |
I've checked - the HyperFit liners are identical on each Tecnica boot that includes HyperFit liners. And that quality of the stitching is the same. And identical processes seem to have been used for each shell in the Diablo range. There are some little differences, like flex index, and the top boots have little bits of plastic that can be slipped in by the heel to improve heel hold.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi BGA, I think miss lead you - I was referring to Race Boots, (the skiers ability to flex or pressure the boot is a 'given')- they are all f-stiff, but the majority of lighter racers would chose a stiff shell and bigger racers chose a soft shell. Hence why race boots are available in a variety of flex options.
Ask any (except Nordica) boot manufacturer how they calculate the boot flex index and they will tell you they don't - therefore a 100 in Tecnica (or Orange ) will differ to that of 100 flex in a Salomon. Nordica explain their rating as the amount of Newton’s required to flex the cuff 1 degree (which I doubt)
'Now or later' - put a skier in a boot that is too stiff can stop them finding centre/balance, thus putting them in the back seat. It shows up in bumps and steeps. Comfort = Performance too!!
Wear The Fox Hat, - my mobile is Orange and is rubbish!!!!! (White boots are best as they do not so affected by light - but look dam ugly when scratched)
marc gledhill, Yes X-Wave 8/9/10 shells (the important part here is the word 'shell') they come out of the same mould and therefore flex exactly the same - yes colour does make a difference - but 'just'. It is not until they are constructed that they become 8/9/10. Take a look they are the same - as you go up the range you will get a better/stiffer liner, go from single to dual canting and finally cuff to clog bolting. Better buckles, power straps and of course 'sexy stickers'. This is normal – rationalisation of production.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
After the Croke Park demonstration - I think Green is definitely the go!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
tailskidder, same mould means same shape. Is the plastic the same too?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't know about manufacturing costs for ski boots, but I do know about fly fishing rods. If you think this season's ski kit is about fashion, then try fishing. Last season's rods don't catch fish, do they?
I know a chap with a fishing rod business. Modern rods are made from rolled carbon fibre sheets, coated with epoxy resin. Carbon fibre is made in Japan, and shipped to a factory in China where the rods are assembled, the factory gate cost is about £15. Add in the cost of shipping, and the variable costs associated with a rod are £20.
As for fixed costs; some R&D costs (my chap is a one-man band, so not very much really, he just tells the Japanese what he wants from the rod blanks) - lets say a one-off cost of a few thousand for a couple of trips abroad.
So what do you think the retail price of the rod is? £450. He generally has a few on eBay with 99p no reserve start prices, and they make £100-£250 depending on who's bidding.
Go to Hardy's to buy your rod (the biggest and swankiest mass produced range), and a very similar - but frankly probably not technically as good - rod might set you back £850.
Go to Hardy's cheapo subsidiary Grey's, and a very similar rod will cost you £150.
I really doubt ski kit is any different.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
tailskidder,
| Quote: |
| 'Now or later' - put a skier in a boot that is too stiff can stop them finding centre/balance, thus putting them in the back seat. It shows up in bumps and steeps. Comfort = Performance too!! |
One thing I always do as an exercise, especially early in a ski hol, is skiing with cuff buckles undone - I find it helps me with getting balance. Then I tighten them up after a couple of runs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
marc gledhill, yepp - 8/9 exactly the same mould and plastic. XW10 used the same mould but different plastic.
Atomic tune each boot by using different plastic but not a different tongue - the results were the same
FYI each mould cost around 20,000 euro - hence why the do not actually make a 26.5 27.5 28.5 they just make a 27 28 29 etc and make liners full and 1/2 size and insert them to make the full size range!! (Practice for 25 + years)
But all that said Orange does seems to be the go. PS My KTM was white with orange stickers - so that is why Macio's use to beat me!!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
petemillis, yep - great exercise, it’s especially useful for me in powder when my upper body wants to control my lower body - infact the older i get the less likely I will bother doing them up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
BGA, Just to add to my last - foot size and tib/fib length come into it as well (all levers etc). Think of it like a bar on the end of a spanner - the longer it is the less effort require to loosen the nut. The shorter the bar (smaller skier) the more effort is required. Therefore a stiffer boot will transfer more drive/power to the ski. Its about balance - 'I just create forces in the turn and react equally to those forces' - Ingemar Stenmark
faster faster faster faster red, blue, red, blue, red..................
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Oh yes the snazzy stickers too. 
