carving - hold outside hand by knee, inside arm out wide

A snowHead

This is something an instructor told me to do when learning carving. This was specifically for long turns but I guess it's the same for short.
After putting the skis on edge and leaning out over the downhill ski with your hips, waist and upper body he told me to put my outside hand by my knees and my inside arm outstretched for balance up the slope.
I think this increases the angle and therefore helps the carve and I presume hloding the inside arm out is for balance and upright posture.
Looks a bit weird though? Any thoughts? I can't really take ay technique from watching downhil skiers as they are always so close to wiping out that their arms are often flaling everywhere Smile

A snowHead

Good exercise, even better, touch the top of your outside boot. BUT be careful not to simply break at the waist and bend forwards, it's all about moving hips & getting your upper body weight over the outside ski. Not sure i've expressed this that well. You can also practice this whilst doing snow ploughs - try it on quite steep terrain and you'll be surprised how well snow plough can work.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

So, by putting your hand further down you accentuate the angle and get more weight out over the outside ski ?
Is the point of the extending the inside arm out just for balance?

I never see people actually ski like this so is it just and exercise or the best way to actually carve it up ?!

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I'm just learning pure carved short radius turns at the moment. IMO they're quite a lot different from large radius pure carved turns, in that you have to be quite energetic to decamber the ski, whilst also having lots of angulation to get the ski right over on edge so that it'll carve a very short (1-2m) radius turn. There is a lot of lower body movement from side to side underneath your (supposedly) serene upper body. On a hard piste I find it quite tiring, but it is exhilirating when you get it right. They are IMO much harder to do than a skidded short radius turn, and feel very different.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Kramer, I really want to learn those - they look very impressive when done smoothly

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I think the exercise you mention is pretty darn hard to do with short turns, but still a very good exercise. Try this one. On gentlish terrain get a ski buddy to ski down (slowly) with their sticks dragging between their legs so that they leave a nice line in the snow. Then you can use that line as a visual guide for your core / upper body to follow. In the meantime your lower body is performing short carved turns cutting across the line. Imagine your lower body as a pendulum swinging from under your core.

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Gordon, the exercise your describing is intended to teach the angulated body position that's needed to maintain lateral balance when the skis are tipped up to high edge angles. It's not my favorite drill because it does, as you suggest, put people in rather unnaturally contorted positions. Also, it's very easy to do it wrong by bending forward the waist and flexing the legs, rather than flexing laterally at the waist, thus making it totally worthless as a training tool.

I'm more fond of the "Schlopy Drill" for developing effective body angles. In this drill the outside hand is placed on the outside hip and pushes the pelvis toward the inside of the turn, while the inside hand and arm are extended forward at shoulder level. The action of the outside hand moves the pelvis inside the feet and tips the skis up on edge, while the action of the inside hand/arm keep the shoulder level to the snow and creates the counter needed to make that shoulder leveling easier to maintain as edge angles increase. The drill produces body positions very realistic to those assumed during high performance carving.

After all it is free

FastMan, That's not the "Schlopy Drill" that's the teapot!

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Scarpa, at the moment they're anything but impressive and smooth. I manage about twenty or so, then get the coordination wrong, and end up spat out the front of my skis. Laughing

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Kramer, if your doing them on the Missions it's impressive. Much easier on a carving ski.

Guys,,, if you're interested in seeing some nice arc to arc slalom turns, go to this site http://www.youcanski.com/video/video_index_en.htm and pan down to the "freeskiing" collection of videos. Click on the Thomas Grandi slalom link. Very nice display of well executed turns. Very easy to identify the technical skills being used to make these turns,,, or at least easy to see when pointed out.

You know it makes sense.

FastMan, note the outside (new inside) ski being unweighted by lifting the tail while tipping to the outside edge to help initiate next turn (described by Harb as the phantom thingummy jig), and stance no wider than hips (nice natural stance)

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

petemillis,

OH no... you had to....

Are you sure it is not an ILE?

A snowHead

little tiger, Well, I do believe that Harb's phantom thingummyjig is more a result of an ILE (inside leg extension) rather than what he seems (unless I've read wrong) to imply is a conscious lifting of the outside (new inside) ski. I think the lifting of the outside (new inside) ski resulting from the ILE is something that has been done ever since people began doing turns on skis, and is nothing in particular to do with modern ski technique (I love that phrase - it makes everything else seem so quaint and old fashioned!).

It's interesting to observe that Grandi, who clearly shows the unweighting of the outside (new inside) ski in the slalom turns, and all of the other skiers in the Freeskiing section, also show a clear unweighting of the outside (new inside) ski in their GS turns. There is clearly not a perfect 50/50 weight distribution and more use is made of the outside ski through the first half of the turn, with perhaps a closer to 50/50 weight distribution only being adopted momentarilly through the belly of the turn before the transition.

I wonder people run into problems when they start thinking that they need to aim for 50/50 weight distribution - I can't see how this can work in turns that are any shorter than the natural turn radius of the ski. Perhaps, when people think they should be aiming for 50/50 weight distribution to carve turns then they are conciously trying not to weight the outside ski more.

I think the most important thing in all of this is "Independent Leg Action" and allowing the upper and lower body to act independently and naturally without making a conscious effort to do it! The upper body can then take care of balance and direction without too much though. Bit like riding a motorbike this skiing lark - the skis will follow the lead of your head.

It's enjoyable looking at, and thinking about, all this stuff. Even if I don't know what I'm talking about, I think it kind of makes sense. Laughing

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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maybe I'm weird then - the 2 transitions always felt quite different to me... nothing like each other in sensory feed

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I think it is pretty weird to call it a "teapot" .... I have never seen a teapot with spout at almost 90 degrees to handle... they usually are more 180degrees apart! Seems they work better that way!

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little tiger, It's the "bent teapot" drill.

After all it is free

little tiger, it's an English nursery rhyme:

"I'm a little teapot, short and stout,
Here's my handle, here's my spout,
When I see a teacup hear me shout
Tip me up and pour me out!"

That's the version I learned but according to Wikipedia there are several variations on the third line. Thing is, it's complete with actions which is why it works for upper/lower body separation

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eng_ch, I know it well ... but FastMan, 's "schloppy" drill involves straight arm FORWARD - not in standard teapot position...which is out to side (ie 180degrees to handle arm).....

Hence i cannot work out why you would call THAT drill teapot!!! As it does not even look like a teapot anymore .... you PUSH hip in not bend over as you do when being the "teapot" in the nursery rhyme... and the SPOUT faces the wrong way if you did...so do you bend FORWARD where the spout now is? or sideways as you did before?

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little tiger, sorry, didn't realise you knew it... grandmother... eggs... And I should learn to read, I overlooked the word "forward". However, it's really a case of finding whatever (image) works for the individual: teapots, beach balls, aeroplanes, drills named after people... And I don't think it necessarily has to be exact to work, I think "teapot" as soon as the hand goes on the hip, regardless of the exact alignment of my other hand.

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eng_ch,

yeah but I think FastMan, had a specific reason for the hand forward part... He usually has a reason when being precise in directions...

and I don't think it was necessarily just you missed that bit...

We should see if we can get him to elucidate...

The way I understood it his drill creates more angulation and counter... while the teapot idea would involve more tipping into the turn... Confused

I've seen race classes do it both ways (inside hand forward, and inside hand sideways). Didn't seem to make much difference to how they were skiing - it was still bloody quick down the hill!

You know it makes sense.

little tiger, Don't be so literal! Of course the arm is forward! rolling eyes

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I like inside hand forward - as if you're being pulled down the hill by it. Kind of keeps the upper body in the right direction. Here's an exercise you can do in front of TV. Stand with knees flexed, legs hip width, facing TV, roll onto left hand edges of your slippers as if wanting to make a left turn. At same time drop right arm down by your side towards your right hand toe and lift left arm forward to shoulder height pointing to TV. You will find as you push the left arm forward (as if someone is pulling it) that your hips rotate clockwise, your back bottom moves towards centre of your imaginary turn and you right hand (outside leg) has a tendency to straighten.

Now, lower your left arm and let the hips straight, roll to right hand edges of slipper edges while lifting right arm towards TV and imagining someone is pulling it. You will now find the opposite - hips turn anticlockwise, bum moves in towards centre of imaginary right hand turn and left leg (outside leg) has tendency to straighten.

You can actually ski smoothly like this without even thinking much about your legs - aside from keeping them flexed at the knee - and letting your upper body do the job of steering via the hips.

A snowHead

Wow,,, good comments everybody! Don't worry too much about the names of drills, as they don't always match exactly the image of their name. In fact, I swear some were named by guys/gals under the influence of the same drugs as those fellas who named the constellations. Very Happy

As long as you know how to do them properly, the purpose they serve, and the skill they teach, you're good to go.

petemillis, I want to address a few of your statements, because you make some keen observations. First the 50-50 weighting idea of old; yes, you're right in your feelings about it. The sooner the 50-50 concept dies for good the better. This became a mantra of the PSIA camp (and others I'm sure) when shape skis burst onto the scene, as they struggled to gain a technical understanding of how to use them. They're now as we speak coming to grips with the error of their ways and preaching a more efficient lateral weight distribution model. 50-50 will work OK at low edge angles (where most of the public and many instructors spend most their time), but as edge angles increase the inside leg gets shorter (more highly flexed), and it becomes less able to harbor the large turn forces associated with big edge angle turns. Not the place you want half the turn forces directed, you think? It's just a bio-mechanical reality.

As far as whether we're looking at ILE or OLR in the video I presented, I was surprised you were even familiar with the terms! Little Tiger knows them because she was a long time studier over at Epicski where I introduced and explained the term "ILE" to the general ski world a few years ago. But beyond that small microcosm of the skiing community I thought knowledge of it had not spread widely yet. Perhaps I was wrong. Apparently it's swam across the pond.

For those unfamiliar with the terms ILE and OLR, the long forms are INSIDE LEG EXTENSION and OUTSIDE LEG RELAXATION. Both are means of initiating a transition from one turn into the next that is powered by the lateral external forces present in the turn prior to the transition. OLR does it by relaxing the old outside leg (outside leg of the prior turn), which transfers (dumps) pressure to the old inside leg, puts the skier out of lateral balance, and causes him/her to tip across the skis and into the new turn,,, and ILE does it by extending the old inside leg, which snatches pressure away from the old outside foot, putting the skier in the same state of imbalance as in OLR, and causing the same tipping into the new turn. I'll start a thread here shortly to explain the process in detail.

As to which (ILE or OLR) is happening in the Grandi video (see my 23:06 post for the link), notice that the first move he makes to initiate the transition is an extension of the old inside leg, followed by an unweighting and lifting of the old outside foot. This is a clear indicator ILE is being employed. If it were in fact OLR being used you would see an initial collapse of the old inside leg as pressure was tossed to it via the relaxation of the old outside leg. You don't see that happen here. What you see is an old inside leg that extends, with no collapse (flexion) prior to extending and taking pressure away from the old outside foot/leg.

This video is in fact a beautiful display of ILE. It's why I was so impressed with your (petemillis) observation that some what some (Harb) attribute to pure OLR may in fact be misidentified. That was a very keen observation.

There's more in this video that needs to be pointed out and discussed to make the whole technical picture clear to everyone, but I suppose this is enough for now and I'll let everyone digest this much first.

A snowHead

Oh,,, and pete,,, good indoor TV drill. It mimics the Schlopy/teapot very well.

(how come you guys don't have a thumbs up econ here? Little Angel

)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

FastMan, thanks for that, a nice explanation of what happens in the transition linking one carved turn to another IMO. However just to complicate things further, in the short radius carved turns that I do, I don't think that I make quite the same movements with my legs and body. Would you agree?

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FastMan, I only became aware of your terms ILE and OLR relatively recently. It's just that they describe so clearly and concisely what an ESF instructor in Andorra taught me the only time I had lessons back in 1993. Of course things were a little different then as more knee outside knee angulation was required, but he still taught us to make significant use of the inside ski during the turn and transition. It was a revelation for me because I really didn't expect to be doing "proper" parallel turns (as opposed to stem turns) after just a couple of hours of lessons. My only skiing prior to that was a few hours on the slopes the previous day. The instructor referred to both "lengthening" the inside leg and to "softening" the outside leg. Also, I'm a "mature" student trying to finish off a PhD and I have this tendency to want to figure things out and understand how things work all the time (shame I can't focus some of this effot on my PhD though!)

Re the Schlopy drill - I have a thought that the "hand on hip" part might cause problems for some, in that the pushing part could cause rigidity in the upper body as they may attempt to push the hip sideways, rather than feel and encourage the rotation. By just letting the outside arm drop, and lifting the inside arm forwards, then the hip movement is left as natural rotation. By forgetting the hand on hip part then the movement can be speeded up and accentuated making the drill more suitable, perhaps, for Kramer's short radius turns. Also, if that forward arm is allowed to swing down and back towards the new outside foot, rather than have to find it's way back to the hip, the motion is again more natural and can help with faster and smooth ship rotation.

Kramer, see last sentence above. And if you watch some of the slalom videos you will see that the upper body is still very calm in the short radius turns with lots of leg action going on underneath. The difference I see and feel in the short radius turns is that the hip rotation is greater thus allowing much more angulation in the hips. In very long radius turns the angulation in the hips is not so great as theupper body has time and space in order to lean toward the inside of the turn to help with maintaining the high edge angles and balance. In the short radius turns the body itself is more upright and with greater angulation. You can see this to a degree if you watch the Grandi slalom video (linked to by FastMan) and then watch the Grandi GS video.

Sorry folks for waffling on so much - and much love (platonic of course) to anyone who gets to the end of my ramblings!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

petemillis, I must be the exception to all on this forum.

I love to learn, but most of the ramblings about technique here leave me totally cold .

I think I should start an independent thread. Embarassed

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Jeez -- I wish I was as proficient as you guys. Embarassed

I find it much easier to watch someone good, be told what to do , try to emulate and 'feel' what's happening. I may never be a 'good' skier but reading some of this I honestly believe I have more chance of understanding Einstein's theory.

ILE, OLR. 'initiation of external forces', Puzzled

I did watch the WC-GS today and even a dumb-head like me could identify different styles/techniques ... if it's good enough at that level ...

Do 'real' skiers really discuss this , or is it just a 'X-The Pond' thing? Why can't we keep it simple ?

Is my 'feel' thing wrong?

I'd never have started skiing if I thought it this difficult !

After all it is free

Re: 50:50 Weighting - here's a recent article on the subject:

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=20951

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When I'm doing large radius carved turns, the turn is initiated by extension of the new outside leg, and pressuring the skis inside edge, simultaneously with a reduction in pressure through the new inside leg, and a lateral movement of my body across the direction of travel of the skis, so that it is now on the inside of the new turn.

When I'm doing short radius turns, the new turn is initiated by the rebound from the pressuring and decambering of the outside ski, as I relax my outside leg, causing my legs to move laterally under my body as my new outside leg extends and pressurises the ski again.

It seems to me that short radius turns are initiated by my outside leg as opposed to the inside leg in long radius turns, and that inside leg extension happens much later in the turn in a short radius carved turn.

Help!!

carving - hold outside hand by knee, inside arm out wide

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