 Poster: A snowHead
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Background: So I'm over in Champoluc at the weekend and I observe, as I have done of late (well, anyway in Italy this year) that there are lots of skiers skiing very fast. Not entirely (IMHO) in control. I don't think it's just the Italians although their on piste "lane discipline" leaves a great deal to be desired - yep, just like their driving.
And it occurs to me. Is this simply a function of shaped/carving skis? It's so much easier to turn that it's much easier to ski quickly now (leaving aside any discussion of the ease of skiing off piste) and I'm not convinced that this is a good thing. I think we've discussed this before, but it's always worth a reprise to get a bit of a chat going.
Plus, it's a little harder to "skarve" turns on firmer skis, excacerbating the problem.
Comments, thoughts??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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GrahamN, I don't like making predictions but the general base up there is pretty good. What I'd be looking for is sunshine and mild days with deep overnight freezes leading to delightful spring off piste!
I'm not trying to do the humbug thing (for once) - especially as my new skis really don't do anything other than hold an edge, but I felt that SHs had been missing a controversial sort of debate for a while...
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David Murdoch, fat skis make it easier for billies to go off piste as well...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Recent & first trip to schladming area this year I was surprised at the number of fast skiers on piste - made me very nervous. Seemed to me loads of people of short racy carvers. The conditions were hard pack man-made, off-piste pretty much zero, so I guess everyone squeezed on-piste and conditions favoured ripping it up on carvers. Having said that I stuck to my very fat off-pisters, just in case conditions suddenly changed or I spotted a powder stash (never happend). Maybe it's the ski area - heart of austria, not a renowed off-piste area, all the local wanna be racers?
I'm used to being off-piste for a good deal of my skiing where I feel much much safer (even if it's just to the side), just like driving a car on the road, other people make me nervous whether they are skilled & experienced or not - everyone can make a mistake. Don't get me wrong I really enjoy ripping it fast on piste, but when it's suitable conditions and that doesn't include it being busy.
I'm not sure whether it's down to the carving skis or not, at least they are easier to turn or is that what gives people confidence to go faster? Though having said that I reckon most skiers lack the skill to carve even carvers. I don't really buy into the "put 'em on edge and they will do the rest for you" - still plenty of additional input from the skier required.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
Background: So I'm over in Champoluc at the weekend and I observe, as I have done of late (well, anyway in Italy this year) that there are lots of skiers skiing very fast. Not entirely (IMHO) in control. I don't think it's just the Italians ......
Comments, thoughts?? |
David, I agree entirely. The Spanish ski too fast also (Latin machismo?)---especially the ones who have no technique or control...and the ski shops rent out ONLY carvers now (my son rented them--but he CAN ski..)
PS I got crashed into by one of these skiers last week... 
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David Murdoch, I saw an interview with one of the surgeons at one of the Innsbruck hospitals a while ago. He was saying that since the introduction of carvers the number and type of accidents he sees has definitely changed for the worse. He said that these days he sees people with the kind of ski injuries that in former days would only have happened on motorbikes. The biggest cause of accidents is on piste collisions! That pretty much matches my own impression. Carvers are great, but you end up at speeds where you really ought to have the piste cleared for your own exclusive use. Mix that with a bunch of beginners crossing your path, plus the fact that you tend to use up more room on the piste than used to be the case on straights, and you've got a problem.
That's not to say that I think carvers should be forbidden, but perhaps the resorts should think about finding ways to slow the pace. Stop grooming everything. Leave more bumps. Create more 'freeride' areas. Possibly even separate the valley runs into beginners and experts lanes ( probably not feasible in most places but worth thinking about )?
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Quite possibly, but here's an alternative theory. The pistes are busier now hence more collisions. They're busier because of the smart new high speed lifts which cause fewer people to be held up in lift queues and therefore more people to be hooning around on the pistes at any given moment.
Definitely think it's collisions that do the real damage. If you just wipe out, it's more about how you fall than the speed you were going at
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I did say I was leaving that aside, for now...we can come back to it later!
waynos, Yep. I think part of the problem is exactly "put 'em on edge and they will do the rest for you". If that means you can go faster, you need to be increasing your "situational awareness, "collision avoidance" and "stopping skills" at least at the same rate as your kinetic energy.
Julieanne,  I suspect there is some Latin machismo effect in place (the same one that has Italian lunatics hooning around all over the place and yet if you overtake one of them you leave behind yells of "slow down" on the basis that they surely mustbe the best and fastest skier on the slope). It's worse when Sophie or her sister overtake a bloke, beaten by a girl? Never!
Mike Lawrie, Very interesting. And scary. I would definitely second a reduction (cessation?) of grooming on anything other than marked off race slopes (sell single run race tickets? make more money?) and learning areas - with the obvious exception of grooming where it's necessary for maintaining the base.
Arno, An unusual take on busier. I don't think there are net more skiers skiing - but 1. this season I would imagine they are a little more concentrated onto higher lifts/resorts and 2. yes, increased uplift could well result with more skiers skiing rather than hanging around.
I would hate to advocate any form of snow nannying, but it feels clear that something needs to change before it breaks.
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David Murdoch, I don't think there are more skiers on the mountain; they are just distributed differently
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Mike Lawrie wrote: |
...Carvers are great, but you end up at speeds where you really ought to have the piste cleared for your own exclusive use. Mix that with a bunch of beginners crossing your path, plus the fact that you tend to use up more room on the piste than used to be the case on straights, and you've got a problem.
That's not to say that I think carvers should be forbidden, but perhaps the resorts should think about finding ways to slow the pace. Stop grooming everything. Leave more bumps. Create more 'freeride' areas. Possibly even separate the valley runs into beginners and experts lanes ( probably not feasible in most places but worth thinking about )? |
I'd pretty much agree with this. The aspiration of most skiers used to be to be able to do quick neat little short turns like their instructor did, which was harmless. Now everyone wants to do wide carving turns with the result that they ski faster and broader, and often without the skill to really carve or be in good control. It seems many skiers don't realise that when competitive skiers do this it's only safe 'cos the piste is prepared and cleared.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think Arno has a point...... where are you going to have the queues, in the lift line or on the hill...? and on the hill looks better for the resort as its less visible.
I definitely ski slower these days.....mostly..
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| Mike Lawrie wrote: |
| That's not to say that I think carvers should be forbidden, but perhaps the resorts should think about finding ways to slow the pace. |
Skiing Les Arcs and Tignes/Val d'Isere this season I've noticed more use of barriers and nets to slow the passage of skiers as you approach piste intersections, 'tranquil zones', lift queues, etc. Although these have been used for some time there seems to be more of them and more thoughtfully deployed (eg three sets of barriers requiring a double chicane to progress, therefore ensuring a much slower speed).
I'm frequently frustrated by not being able to use my skis to their full potential because there's not enough room on the piste, but when it's not safe for me or those I might collide with then there is no alternative but to ski in a different way. You don't have to use the full width of the piste to 'carve' - just look at the number of GS lanes that are used on pre-season glaciers to see how many fast skiers can be accommodated in a relatively small area. Perhaps resorts should set up a few more GS lanes during the season so that those people who like to ski fast can do so in a controlled way rather than being a risk to other slope users. It would also be fun to provide a demanding test for those people who think they are great skiers because they can do a fast park & ride on their edges. Nothing like a set of gates to highlight weaknesses in on-piste technique!
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar,
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| but when it's not safe for me or those I might collide with then there is no alternative but to ski in a different way. |
I think there are too many people who don't think to do this. They've forgotten skills they learned on straighter skis, or they think such skills are so "old school" that it's only cool to ski fast carved turns now, or they've been taught recently without sufficient emphasis on anything other than smooth carved turns.
Without more piste patrol, speed cameras and heavy fines/eviction from the piste being introduced, we can still protect ourselves a bit. Observe who is about to enter the piste with you. If you've just got off a crowded cable car, rather than rushing to be first down the piste how about holding on until the crowd has cleared? The dangerous macho ones are probably eager to be first - leave them to it. There are other things as well - like staying observant. Think of your safety zone and look after yourself.
One partiular hazard that I've noticed is the really really high speed macho man on the blue runs - carving turns as if other skiers are gates and cutting through groups of obviously more nervous people. I bet 90% of these prats would go to pieces on anything tricky - yet they're happy to ski flat out where much slower people are likely to be.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've been surprised at the posts here. In my experience, although most skiers are on carvers, few of them are carving. Mostly, carvers are being used as if they were straight skis. I used to do this myself before a concentrated learn to carve session. Of the skiers that I know, most learned to ski before carvers came along and, however good or bad or fast or slow they are, haven't changed. I also seem to remember that before carvers were as common, there were still guys blasting down blue pistes at warp speed with not much in the way of turns at all, carved or not.
I suppose that I agree with the original point about more danger to some degree. With straight skis, the good guys followed a fairly narrow course down the fall line while the beginners traversed until the edge of the piste was upon them, both fairly predictable. With carvers you may get a wider variety of turns being made, so less predictability, also and more piste being used when turning uphill to lose speed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ull, I wasn't meaning to say the high speed blokes on the blues have only been here since carving came into fashion - there have always been very fast people doing this (and there have always been people carving - this whole thing is nothing new). There just seems to be a lot more now.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Most people on carving skis can't carve, and skid their turns. By the time that you've learnt to carve properly, which takes a lot of lessons, I think that you will have learnt all the other skills automatically. Most people have to learn to stop skidding their turns, not how to start skidding. After all a skidded turn is pretty much learnt automatically when you learn to ski parallel and hockey stop at the bottom of the hill.
Far more significant IMV is the fact that the cost of skiing, IMV has dropped over the past twenty years in real terms, and so the slopes are far more accessible now than they were in the past.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Kramer, true, but they think they are and now have the mindset of riding the edges and making great long high speed turns, rather than that of fairly low-speed windscreen-wipering as close to the fall line as possible. Your point about accessibility and standard of living improvements is a good one though - when I was growing up just one ski holiday seemed (and was) a major expense, let alone 4/5/6 (or possibly 7  ) a season!
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| Kramer wrote: |
| Far more significant IMV is the fact that the cost of skiing, IMV has dropped over the past twenty years in real terms, and so the slopes are far more accessible now than they were in the past. |
Agreed but the chavs haven't quite arrived yet.
Maybe we should all ski with skis clamped together, short turns down the fall line, wiggling are backsides and of course wearing an all-in-one. 
or take take some lessons from Homer and Ned (Stupid Sexy Flanders...)
http://www.devilducky.com/media/53548/
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| waynos wrote: |
| Recent & first trip to schladming area this year I was surprised at the number of fast skiers on piste - made me very nervous. |
I noticed that too last year, but pistes were very empty and we went with the flow and ripped along too. What I noticed after a day or so was that people were fast but the average skier was very competent, much more so than anywhere else I've been. When I did see falls those nearby seemed to be able to avoid/stop on a sixpence no trouble at all despite seeming high speed, kids and ski schools were conscientiously avoided, intersections slowed for, tidy lines, quiet body and a general appearence of being very comfortable.
I had far less fear than I usually do in the main alpine resorts I usually use in fact!
The idiots that ski too fast for their level/the conditions would do it anyway I think - just more people on the slopes nowadays.
aj xx
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I think the solution is to ban all piste users who have learnt to ski since an appropriate cut off date - say some time in the 80s Not served time in gale swept Scotland - you're out too!
Actually I think this is a european cultural phenomenon and even in relatively gentile switzerland this season I have noticed the on piste "high speed cluster ****" frequently. Off piste is very often safer.
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It seems to me that general speeds are higher than they were when I started I don't know eveything that this is due to. I certainly don't carve properly as I have not learned but still probably reach higher speeds than I used to. I think modern equipment does make skiing easier at speed whether carving or not.
The other big factor is that grooming has changed piste skiing dramatically, there are now very few moderately pitched mogul fields current resort thinking is that they should be bashed out on all but the black runs. The increased emphasis on keeping runs open with snow making means that there is often a relatively narrow area of good snow with lousy or no snow just off the sides of the piste forcing increased numbers of skiers through a smaller area.
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Some interesting comments here.
Carving skis, fast learning curve, very high lift capacity, artifical snow and groomed-to-death runs, all seem to be changing the ski experience, not always for the better.
You see, rear entry boots, one piece suits, straight skis, difficult pistes and Poma drags were not all bad news  !
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Murdoch, I'd ask someone with a pair of SL-R's to add his comments!
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fatbob, I agree - the slopes will soon be near empty then 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lots of interesting comments here. The pistes crowded with fast skiers, often not under great control, are certainly scary. But there are loads of places with uncrowded pistes if you avoid the main holiday periods. There are small ski areas in France which are struggling to survive whilst everyone goes to the big ski factories. Maybe we should seek out the quieter places, and enjoy them. We had superb snow conditions and practically empty pistes in March in the Val D'Arly last year. Great views, some excellent restaurants. I am getting less tolerant of crowds as I get older; really noticed the difference skiing in Tignes, even in a quiet week. Getting down from the glacier to the main centre was like the M25. The visibility was not great, and the snow very far from perfectly groomed and there were lots of very slow and unpredictable skiers on the slopes. We were skiing faster than the average slope user and whilst I suppose it's very good practice for being 100% under control with moving obstacles, it was very unrelaxing. There are loads of places to go which are not crowded, so I suppose if we keep going to crowded places we only have ourselves to blame for getting carved up by carvers? With more DIY holidays maybe more people will choose a base from which they can drive to and explore lots of small areas.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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pam w,
| Quote: |
| There are small ski areas in France which are struggling to survive whilst everyone goes to the big ski factories. Maybe we should seek out the quieter places, and enjoy them. |
This is why I love the place we go to. It's right on the edge of the PDS, 10 mins drive from Avoriaz. It's got a couple of ski shops, a restaurant or two, a small ski school, 2 greens, 5 blues, 7 reds and 1 black. There is never a queue for the lifts, there are never loads of people on the pistes. And although there aren't many runs there's still plenty to provide fun between helping the kids. Could do with a big dump of snow for the coming week though!
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petemillis, bet it's low though 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Kramer wrote: |
Most people on carving skis can't carve, and skid their turns. By the time that you've learnt to carve properly, which takes a lot of lessons, I think that you will have learnt all the other skills automatically. Most people have to learn to stop skidding their turns, not how to start skidding. After all a skidded turn is pretty much learnt automatically when you learn to ski parallel and hockey stop at the bottom of the hill.
Far more significant IMV is the fact that the cost of skiing, IMV has dropped over the past twenty years in real terms, and so the slopes are far more accessible now than they were in the past. |
I'd really agree with kramer here, I've only just began to carve turns after 6 weeks of learning a hell of a lot of other skills. There is however, a period of finding your feet, when you get the speed up and sometimes hit a turn just right; this is part of the learning process and is usually undertaken by decently minded folk on an empty blue run just after the lifts have stopped running. Idiots will always put other people at risk. I know that if I had attempted high speeds amongst crowds I would have not been able to stop or adjust my trajectory to make allowances for people in front of me suddenly changing direction.
At least with motorbikes beginners hold back as a crash has slightly more serious consequences.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Scarpa,
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| At least with motorbikes beginners hold back as a crash has slightly more serious consequences. |
Dead is dead though - people think they're safe cos no engine involved. When I passed my full bike test 4 or 5 years ago, my instructor gave me the choice of riding with him back to the test centre, or going back on my own and meeting him there. I decided to ride with him, and it's when I was doing 115mph on a 500 Kawasaki on a tight left handbend on the A27 with the central reservation getting closer that I reaslised how important the lesson he gave me on counter-steering was... I'd say as a motorcyclist I now don't hold back at all when the roads are clear, but as a skier I hold back when the pistes are busy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Lizzard wrote: |
(PS: why the total distinction between carved turns and short ones? It's possible to carve short turns on your edges isn't it?) |
Because although very few people can carve properly, even fewer can carve short radius turns.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I don't think carved turns have anything to do with it - carving skis is another matter.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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If you ski clean and carve every turn then you will go fairly fast doing gs turns as you will keep your momentum. In reality, most piste skiers will be rounding off their turns / won't have developed the precise skills needed / won't have properly tuned edges or race skis on. A mate said I got a dirty look from a patroller last week cranking llong gs turns on an uncrowded pitch, I also know I scrubbed a lot of speed trying to do the same thing on my rock basher skis.
As someone says above fast isn't necessarily carving. The army used to descend on Cairngorm and this is a case in point! Most of them had only skied a few days and they melted down the hill in a fast, loose and at times very dangerous way....
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Jonnie, amen to that - one of my 4 class accidents was a marine who wiped out a boy of 10, dislocating his shoulder on the 105. 
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I agree with Ull, in my experience very few people carve at holiday resorts. The main advantage of carving skis for most is being "allowed" to use much shorter skis than before. Maybe this gives them more control and confidence.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, British Army championships in Serre Che are a sight to behold, most of them can't ski!!
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Jonnie, welcome to snowHeads !
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FAQ
