 Poster: A snowHead
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I know some snowheads are SCGB members but don't use the Club's forum much. But if you are a SCGB member, and a parent of young skiing children, I do recommend you read this thread - it's food for thought.
[edit: full quote of the poster's start to the the thread below]
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 16-02-07 1:11; edited 5 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Why? Wotzit say?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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doctor_eeyore, It's become a very long thread - based on personal experience - so it's best read direct. Very briefly, a young boy broke his leg in a ESF ski class of a dozen or so, in bad visibility. The instructor did not see the incident. The argument is that even if parents are not experienced skiers, they should closely monitor what is going on in a class, and make a judgement about whether it is safe for their children to go in it. Several posters suggest that young children should always be placed in private classes with small groups.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
young children should always be placed in private classes with small groups.
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Cotton wool or what? My daughter broke her leg age 7 whilst in an ESF class in Courchevel, no-one saw how the accident occured but a British woman skied through the class and took out my daughter.
It was an accident! She was back in an ESF class the next year.
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The argument is that even if parents are not experienced skiers, they should closely monitor what is going on in a class, |
How?
My Sister in Law broke her thumb in an ESF class in Les Gets a few years ago, should she have been in private lessons?
Achilles
Is it a lets have a go at the ESF again 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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boredsurfin, it looks like it will be, but as we're not members we can't find out. My kids have had a mainly positive experience with ESF, and stopped their lessons when they became to old for kids classes, as they felt a bit odd in the adult ones. There's good and bad tuition in every country, it just that ESF bashing seems to be a great sport amongst UK skiers.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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One of the boys in my 5 year old son's class fell over while playing chase in the playground and badly concussed himself. It's only a small class of 25. The accident happened out of sight of the teacher and she was informed by one of the other kids in the playground. If only his parents had been there to monitor the playground he may never have fallen over. I think I may take my son out of school and educate him at home just in case he gets knocked over while playing with his friends - it's just so risky. Sod all that socialising with other kids and having a bit of fun.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| .........My Sister in Law broke her thumb in an ESF class in Les Gets a few years ago, should she have been in private lessons?......... |
The small boy broke his tibia in a class of 12 in bad visibility.
My lad learned to ski with the ESF - as did I. I am not automatically anti ESF. But the post raises a fair point.
I will try to get the first-poster's permission to copy his post verbatim here, it sets the scene. As the family is AFIK still in resort, it may take a few days. Though he was clearly distressed enough to feel he had to post, I suspect the dad has more on his plate than hanging around an internet cafe.
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Lets have at ESF - EXCELLENT, can I play.
Why are the UK and French independent lessons so popular? Becasue they keep the group sizes down to max 8 and often 6. That's a managable size. 10 or more is not.
I've commented in depth about my experiences with ESF this winter - a search will find them if required. The short version - I won't ever use them again.
As for parents following - NO, No, NO and NO. As any parent will tell you, your kids will be showing off, looking for you and generally you will cause them problems. I know from talking to various instructors they do not like clingy parents. By all means a discreet glance is understandable, but then you're far enough away that you can't stop them having accidents.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My youngest son was only 8 when he broke his leg skiing in Andorra. He was in a lesson, they'd just done their end of week race, where he'd come first and got the gold, and they were having a bit of fun in the deep stuff just at the side of the piste.
We did feel bad - we thought maybe his bindings had been set too high, and we've always checked their din setting since, but accidents happen sometimes, whatever the circumstances. He's now 17 and a pretty good skier - it certainly didn't put him off.
I read the thread on the Ski Club forum by the way.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The parents have to decide whether their child should go into a class, or ski on a particular day of conditions are bad. Just like any other activity. But having decided to let them go ahead, they can't hold an instructor responsible for an accident (unless he was taking them down an icy black run etc etc). A friend's 3 year old broke her leg in an unlucky fall on a gentle piste, with her Mum. Nobody's fault. Another friend is a sailing instructor and a child lost an eye in a freak accident in a class under his supervision. It was a completely "safe" class in shallow, bounded, water and the kids were practising capsizing. The girl in question got banged, and in a very unlucky way, which ended in her losing sight. Her mother was very upset and decided to try to sue the sailing club, which was ridiculous and unfair. The girl herself, who had been a friend of my daughter's saw it as "just one of those things" and was very mature about it and wanted to carry on sailing, but she was never allowed to go again. That arguably did her more harm than the injury. The whole thing was extremely unpleasant and a very hard working, and highly qualified, volunteer instructor who gave a lot of time to helping kids was so upset he almost gave up entirely.
If parents are unhappy about snow or piste conditions (as they might well sensibly be) then keep the child out of the class. The idea that you can let them go and then "monitor" what is happening is daft. Very few children are injured in ski classes - a lot fewer than are injured out skiing with parents, I bet. And a lot fewer than will be killed by drunken drivers every month of the year. Most of the time it's a reasonable risk to take; ie a very small risk. The fact that something as nasty as a broken leg happened in that instance, which must have been extremely distressing for all concerned, does not mean it was a risk that should never have been taken.
The awful thing about this sort of accident is that people gather round and discuss "how to make sure that this sort of thing can never happen again". That's rubbish.
As I type this my daughter's friend is sorting out a mountain of Tesco's shopping in the hall - they are off to the Peak District tomorrow with a group of scouts, camping and walking. Risky? Yes, of course, but a managed risk, and probably better for the kids than lying round on a sofa watching the telly. No kids would ever do any outdoor adventure activities if parents wanted 100% guarantees.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| The parents ........ can't hold an instructor responsible for an accident........... |
The parent in this case specifically did not blame the ESF.
Here's the post that started the thread. published with the poster's permission:
| A parent wrote: |
Firstly, apologies for posting this thread in two forums, but the message is important and I want it seen, especially by parents.
I am typing this in my hotel room in Belle Plagne. My seven year-old son, Gabriel, is sitting up in bed listening to a Harry Potter tape, nursing a broken leg. It has been a bad night, with lots of pain and tears and little sleep.
We arrived in Belle Plagne on Saturday. If you've been following the snow reports, you'll know there's been loads of snow. Visibility has been poor to virtually zero. This is our second ski holiday, so we were both booked in morning group lessons with ESF. He got the 1ere Etoile last year, so was in the 2eme Etoile group.
From the beginning of the week I had noticed a few times how big the groups are. Obviously it is our half term, and also French half term. Last year, we went with Mark Warner. They contract ESF for ski lessons, but oblige them to limit classes to 6. This year we are with Crystal, and for them booking lessons seems just to mean passing the booking on and marking up the price. I don't think they 'add any value'. You line up for ski school with everyone else. Children's groups are very mixed in terms of age with both French and English taught together. Going up on a lift one morning, I saw 17 1ere Etoile near-beginners trailing one instructor.
Where am I going with this? Just this: as an inexperienced skiier, I deferred to the 'authority' of the ESF and trusted that they would guide and teach my son on the mountain more safely than I would. Deep down, I was uncomfortable with the groups, but I went with what everyone else was doing. If I am honest, the fact I wanted to ski my lessons surely had something to do with it as well. I was simply wrong. I have one week's skiing behind me, but seven years as a parent. I should have gone with my instinctive feeling and kept him with me, even if it meant staying just on the nursery slope.
What happened? I don't know exactly. The instructor didn't see, and none of the children give a very clear account. It seems that Gabriel was last in a string of about 12, skiing in poor viz and high winds. The group were led on a small excursion into deep powder. Gabriel got off line, built up speed he was uncomfortable with, and probably attempted a tight snowplow turn. He fell and sustained a clean break of the left tibia. He was taken off the mountain by the pisteurs to the medical centre at Plagne Bellacote. The first I knew was when my lesson returned - late - and I couldn't find his skis. This is about as frightening an experience as I have encountered as a parent. Staying with him in the medical centre while they set his leg is also something I wouldn't wish on anyone.
I could blame the ESF, but I won't. That's the way they do things. I do blame myself for abdicating my responsibility for his safety.
To every parent taking their child away this half term, I appeal to you to use your own judgement. Even if you are inexperienced in the mountains like me, if the conditions feel too demanding, or the groups are too large, or anything else about the setup rings alarm bells for you, listen to them. Keep your children with you; book private lessons; go sledging; whatever. It just isn't worth it.
Enjoy the fabulous snow conditions in France this week, and get home safely. |
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| Quote: |
I have one week's skiing behind me, but seven years as a parent. I should have gone with my instinctive feeling and kept him with me, even if it meant staying just on the nursery slope.
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I can't see how the child would be more safe with a 1 week skier than with a qualified instructor. I can understand his anguish as a parent, but that comment doesn't make sense to me 
Accidents are unavoidable, I would have thought that accidents in ski school are rather rare, but you have to accept that there is a risk when you take your family into an unpredictable mountain environment.
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You know it makes sense.
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Having read the account I do not believe that anyone did anything wrong, the child in effect caused their own injury by falling awkwardly, this could just as easily have happened on the wat to the ski school as during the lesson.
I would suggest that this is more due to the parents guilt at not being there to make a fuss when their child was hurt than it is about ski school capabilities
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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D G Orf, I agree, parental guilt. Understandable though, but the child could easily have hurt himself skiing with the parent on the nursery slope,( or in smaller class). As an inexperienced skier themselves, would they have dealt calmly with the situation? As Julian and I learnt to ski at the same time as our kids, we always felt that they were safer in ski school, at least until we felt happy on our skis ourselves, and had the confidence to guide them round the mountain.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I passed this on as food for thought, rather than a direct endorsement of the parent's viewpoint, or a condemnation of the ESF ( and notice the parent didn't condemn the ESF, either. I guess as a grandparent I am thinking about the very young again these days.
FWIW, I have seen very large ESF classes of schoolchildren, and wondered at the wisdom of so large a class. Weaving a large class down a busy piste seems fraught with danger to me, despite piste rules. Youngsters get obsessed with following the instructor, rather than having self-preservation as a priority. The tail-end-charley may often be in very different circumstances from what the head of the queue is experiencing. Moreover, he or she is very poorly placed to get the benefit of what the instructor is doing.
I think I was lucky when I took my then about 12-year old son to Les Arcs . He learned by the Ski Evolutif method in a class for French children, with the ESF. Fortunately, with his O-level French, a good instructor, and lots of reading the "We Learned to Ski" book (which covered the method) in the evening with me, his progress was spectacular. By the end of the week, could ski down a red mogulled run - rather slower than me. But give him a straight blue run, and he would rocket past me at a speed I could not keep up with. We had an excellent holiday.
So, with the right instructor, ESF worked out fine. But given what I have seen since I would now think about private instruction - if I were a parent of a young skiing child - ideally in a small group. I think one-on-one might be too intensive for some children. And maybe a small group more fun. Would it be with an ESF instructor? Quite possibly. One of the best instructors I have had (I'd rate him alongside easiski) was ESF through and through.
BTW, Gabriel is on the mend, and returns with his family home tonight. To quote his father, "his largest concern seemed to be that he would not receive his 2eme etoile badge; in fact he seemed more bothered about that than his leg". So I don't think the skiing world has lost a new recruit. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, it has certainly given us a lot of food for thought. We have perhaps been fortunate in that our kids never experienced such huge ESF classes.
'
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Obviously it's parents' responsibility to check that they are happy with the way in which their kid's ski school conducts itself, so far as they can judge that, and with the conditions on the pistes on a particular day. It is hard to see how every risk can be removed and the fact is that a percentage of people will injure themselves. My kids haven't been in ESF but they've been in other ski schools, and once or twice things have appeared to be less than ideal. The only alternative is to teach them yourself (not an option for most) or not let them ski.
It's looks to me like a spot of (understandable) parental angst following an accident to the kid (if one of our kids was hurt, I know the OL would feel guilty whatever the circs, even if she was in a different country at the time). The nature of skiing is that if you take a purler, you may have to rely on the kindness of strangers to sort you out (presumably what happened in this case). That is why people stop when they see someone looking as if they need help. I don't see what is wrong with a ski school accepting that if one of the back markers takes a fall, a passing skier may be the one to help. I believe that very little kids usually go out with two instructors (in Canada, my kids were often accompanied by two instructors even when they were older, if there was an instructor with no class to take), but the cost of that for all kids' classes would be prohibitive and wouldn't guarantee that all falls would be spotted immediately by an instructor.
Class size is an issue, but more from the point of view of quality of tuition than safety. I wouldn't be happy for anyone I was paying for to be in a group of more than 8 tops.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yes, the account makes sad reading for any parent (or grandparent) but it wasn't anybody's "fault". The child would not necessarily have been any safer skiing with a parent (they can fall on any slope). Everybody knows that ESF groups are large - you see them all the time, at half term, and that's why they're cheap. Personally I would never put a small child in a big group, not so much for safety considerations as for the sake of better quality learning and a more fun experience; being tail end Charlie is useless.
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Youngsters get obsessed with following the instructor, rather than having self-preservation as a priority
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I don't agree. I think it's best if they DO follow the instructor, it would be far more difficult to safely pass through a class if they were all doing what they fondly imagined (at 7!) was best for their own self preservation.
It's very good news that Gabriel is improving and keen to get his next badge. Next time, no doubt, he will be in a different kind of set up though - rather than in line for an ESF badge!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| petemillis wrote: |
| One of the boys in my 5 year old son's class fell over while playing chase in the playground and badly concussed himself. It's only a small class of 25. The accident happened out of sight of the teacher and she was informed by one of the other kids in the playground. If only his parents had been there to monitor the playground he may never have fallen over. I think I may take my son out of school and educate him at home just in case he gets knocked over while playing with his friends - it's just so risky. Sod all that socialising with other kids and having a bit of fun. |
I totally agree with this Pete. A British school (Cant remember where) has just announced a ban on the game of "Tag" in the playground because of the "risks" and their fear of being sued by over-protective parents...scary stuff. I would injure myself every week as a kid, it's part of being a kid!
Why anyone would think that they would have a positive influence by tailing a group led by a fully qualified instructor is beyond me! Kids are at more risk ski-ing behind a shouting parent who suddenly thinks they are a ski instructor than following a professional for a couple of hours...... there will be alot of this going on over the half term weeks and it infuriates me...leave the teaching to the experts and let kids be kids. Accidents happen and of course you will be worried as a parent but the whole cotton-wool culture is getting out of hand.
I do have an issue with the size of ESF classes though - the most I have counted in one class was 18 snaking down the Altiport run in Meribel! The line had 4 bends in in it!
A friend of mine is a British ESF grade 1 instructor and will only take a maximum of 8 in his group but that is his own rule...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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achilles,
| Quote: |
| The tail-end-charley may often be in very different circumstances from what the head of the queue is experiencing. |
This is an interesting point - same happens in motorcycling when you get a big group out for a Sunday blast. The one most likely to crash is the one holding onto the back of the group - and of course, he's on his own as the others don't immediately see it.
I agree that too many kids in a class is not good from the point of view of supervision, and it's not good from the point of view of learning. Perhaps for groups of more than 10 then there should be a "teaching assistant" much like you see in school classrooms these days. It's not necessarilly someone who's fully qualified as a teach, but someone who has good experience and is approved for looking after kids. It might put the cost up a bit - but I'd quite happilly be a teaching assistant for a group at say £10/hour (not per kid, but for the whole group as I wouldn't be teaching - just supervising and helping).
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| Masque wrote: |
The question is:
Are the ski schools creating large classes out of greed?
or
Are parents putting their kids into big groups and at risk out of their own greed? |
Or in this case are the parents, inexperienced themselves, just going along with what their tour operators are selling them, without knowing any different? How many people as new skiers would know the difference between one ski school and another, or actually ask about class sizes/other alternatives if they booked a lessons package in with their holiday?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Okanagan, Fair point and one of the reasons that a forum like this should possibly be getting a bit more proactive in establishing a marketplace for itself. Word of mouth is great but it's not actively promoting the depth of experience it contains.*
*There is a DGesque feel to that statement, but it's not intended to divert us into the who owns what and how much is it worth argument.
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petemillis, I actually agree with you about extra help. I run a Brownie unit of 24 girls (age as per the posters son), and my ratios are 1 adult per 8 girls when we take them out of the normal meeting place.
If I had a group of 12 Brownies, and if there were no such ratio rules to guide me, I would still not even consider taking them out of the meeting place without an adult 'back marker' to bring up the rear. The thought just horrifies me and strikes me as wrong wrong wrong in so many ways. The reason I would worry is honestly less about accidents and more about what the tail end charlies may get up to (i.e. losing them), but the principle is the same, you absolutely cannot take responsibility for youngsters when you can't see them, and would never want to be in a position of having to tell a parent 'we don't know what happened because we couldn't see them at the time'.
I have experienced the same type of safety measures when I have helped take school kids out on trips etc. That is not even in a 'hazardous' environment but just if I take them to the park or to play rounders etc. Like you said the conditions can change between the front and the back of the group, and I have seen this for example when trying to get groups of Brownies across a road or even through a shopping centre. We do lots of adventurous activities with the girls so I wholeheartedly agree that kids need to learn how to take risks. If it's relevant, I'm not a parent and have no cotton-wool wrapping tendencies, I'm just a volunteer who tries to provide fun and safe activities for the girls to do.
I'm not really talking about who to blame, I have just only now thought about how strange it is that it is the norm for one instructor to take a group of 12 (or even more) out alone.
Just my 2 euros worth
D
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In life, there is risk. We choose to accept risk by going skiing. However risks should be acceptably managed. I ski class of 12 children is IMHO is an unacceptably ratio
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Or in this case are the parents, inexperienced themselves, just going along with what their tour operators are selling them, without knowing any different?
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I'm sure this is the case, and maybe the class in question "only" had 12 children in it, which is as advertised by ESF. But I do think that tour operators who act as middlemen (no doubt NOT for zero commission) have a responsibility to clients to check that the 12 limit is stuck to. We've all seen bigger classes. Sometimes out of greed, no doubt, sometimes because people want to book the little darlings into ski school and the classes are full. At half term, most schools will have all their qualified people out on the slopes. I booked a private lesson, for next week, for a niece staying in our apartment and although I booked it a good six weeks ago there was only one slot left, at 9am on their last morning. However, I don't see that a smaller class, or even someone following up the rear picking up the stragglers would necessarily have helped in this case. An awkward fall can always result in injury; I hope Oliver's bindings were properly adjusted, but there again inexperienced parents might not have much idea. And not all ski hire shops are as careful as they should be, especially at half term when the hordes arrive. I see lots of kids in our resort on skis which are ludicrously long for them, maybe because the shops don't have many really little ones.
But no amount of knowledge and experience can rule out accidents, though obviously they can reduce the risk. The 3 year old I quoted above, who broke her leg skiing on an easy slope with Mum, is a quarter Austrian, was staying at the family home in Kitzbuhel and has an aunt who is a top snowboard instructor in the resort. Not an inexperienced family but she still broke her leg. Her mother, the following year, had an appalling knee injury sustained when standing right at the edge of the piste wiping the 4 year old's nose. She was taken out by a hefty and out of control eight year old in a helmet and tuck position, pushing her knee violently sideways where it is definitely not meant to go. A top Austrian knee surgeon operated on it three times, never the same again. Accidents can happen to any of us, however careful we are, and it serves no purpose to beat ourselves up about it. But yes, get better informed, read Snowheads!
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't really understand why this is an issue. What have we learned? Skiing has inherent risks, no matter you are in a class of four or a class of 12 (the accident described on the Ski Club site could have happened regardless of class numbers or ski schools). Unfortunately accidents do happen, to a minority only but nevertheless each week children and adults alike return from their holiday in plastercasts. So we haven't really learned anything new.
The boy's Mum (Dad?) advocates parents using their own judgement - that doesn't seem contentious, but as an inexperienced skier she seems to carrying some guilt that she should have withdrawn her child from that day's ski school. I'm an experienced skier and based on her description of conditions that day I wouldn't have withdrawn any child I was responsible for. I think that she is being unnecessarily harsh on herself, and I hope with more experience she will understand that occasionally stuff like this happens. In the meantime it's good news that her son is OK and will ski again 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Skiing has inherent risks, no matter you are in a class of four or a class of 12 (the accident described on the Ski Club site could have happened regardless of class numbers or ski schools). |
The point is that the bigger the group, the bigger the risks. Also the less time the instructor has to give attention to each individual. That is exactly why I have never put my sons in ESF classes - I have seen too many ESF groups of 12, 14, even more on occasion. That is not unique to ESF either, and no criticism of the quality of instructor (I know that most of the top French instructors are in the ESF network), but limiting the number in a class is a good policy and one I am willing to pay that little bit extra for.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yet another reason to not have kids- you cant even pay people to take them off your hands these days!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| nlinesw4 wrote: |
| The point is that the bigger the group, the bigger the risks. |
That might well be the case generally, but in the example quoted in this thread I don't think that a class size of 8 would have prevented this boy having an accident. Like you I've also been prepared to pay a premium for ski instruction other than from the local ESF, but that never will entirely remove the risk of accidents happening. We should just accept that from time to time no-fault accidents occur, and if they do try not to be too hard on ourselves because we've "let it happen by taking the wrong decision".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I disagree Rob, with a smaller class size the kid in question may well have been closer to the instructor, and thus more in control.
This is one reason why I go with a few other families and get 3 or 4 of our kids in one private lesson, it is no more expensive that ESF.
regards,
Greg
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| kitenski wrote: |
I disagree Rob, with a smaller class size the kid in question may well have been closer to the instructor, and thus more in control.
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He could also have been in a private lesson for one and still had that exact same accident. My point is that you cannot eliminate all risk, and I think the boy's parent seemed to be carrying more guilt than was warranted based on the decisions he/she took about ski school that day. I was in a private lesson a couple of weeks ago and was taken well outside of my comfort zone, and a fall and slide could have been nasty. Compared to the class of 9 I was in at the beginning of the season I think the risk of a serious injury was much greater. But in both examples unforeseen accidents could have happened. It's the nature of mountain sports, and anybody who thinks they can buy their way to zero risk misunderstands what can happen.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Kids (and adults) who are active will get injured. It's a fact of life.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| ......and anybody who thinks they can buy their way to zero risk misunderstands what can happen. |
Absolutely.
However, my trusty hillwalking bible, "Mountaincraft and Leadership" by Eric Langmuir covers the number that should be in a hill walking/mountaineering party. He worries about large parties. He says the ideal size is about six, the sort of number that the leader can be aware of without actually counting heads. The Langmuir book is not an instruction manual for whimps, it covers activity which has inherent hazards, but gives advice on how the risks can be sensibly minimised. It seems to me that the reasons behind the party number - passing on instruction, maintaining interest, and being aware that the full party is present, read across to skiing - particularly for young children who cannot fend for themselves very well if something goes wrong.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| My point is that you cannot eliminate all risk, and I think the boy's parent seemed to be carrying more guilt than was warranted based on the decisions he/she took about ski school that day. |
Now there I totally agree with you, Rob - though feeling that sort of guilt is probably a natural parent's reaction.
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achilles, O level french aged 12 !!! either that is mistyped or you have one hell of a clever lad there !!!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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backhojo, I'll buy that. Senior memory. I think probably he took his O-level French early - but not that early! FWIW, he is far cleverer than I am - now has a job which reflects that - and is himself a dad. This thread has brought back memories of a very special holiday with him - I hope no parents are deterred from taking their children to the mountains by its content.
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| achilles wrote: |
| The Langmuir book is not an instruction manual for whimps |
More for Whimpers, perhaps.
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