 Poster: A snowHead
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This has been an ongoing issue in the German speaking countries, now I have found an English article on it.
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Artificial snow is used on around 23,800 hectares -- the equivalent of some 35,000 soccer pitches or nearly 30 percent of all Alpine skiing slopes.
Some 95 million cubic metres of water -- the annual water consumption of a city of 1.5 million people -- are needed to produce one season's artificial snow for skiers and snowboarders in Italy, France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Slovenia.
Effects were already visible in some areas, like in parts of French skiing region Les Trois Vallees where water levels of some mountain rivers had dropped by 70 percent, she [Carmen de Jong, professor and research manager at the Mountain Institute at the University of Savoie in France] said.
Some Alpine villages, which previously got most of their drinking water from mountain streams, now needed to pump water out of the ground to ensure drinking supplies. Water taken out of the Alps would be missing for people and industry down the line.
De Jong recognised the economic role winter sports played for the region, but said snow sport enthusiasts and the tourism industry needed to come up with alternatives, like snow-shoe hiking.
"The tourism industry needs to realise that they cannot produce snow and have a skiing season at all costs," she said.
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The full article is here:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L18553730.htm
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So where does all of the water used to make the artificial snow go, when it melts then? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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And how does de Jong (the TGR maggots would love that) propose resorts develop snow-shoe hiking on gravel, grass etc?
Not that I don't think artificial snow is by and large a waste of time in terms of quality of ski experience (indoors excepted).
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Funny, water levels in our reservoirs over here always get really low at the moment, and we don't have artificial snow.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I cant see how there can be a net loss in water from artificial snow if the water used in the snow cannons is taken localy from the run off streams from the piste as I would guess most are to avoid exsesive pumping head and or costs in water charges. It may give varences in water levels in that a dry year may get a lower water level for a short time but this will be replenished in the melt.
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All the water is let out of the reservoirs here at this time of year to make room for the stuff that's about to come down - how do they factor that in or does that not count as waste? Honestly, there's so much scaremongering, sounds like someone actually has it in for the ski industry
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Read the whole article, people:
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| De Jong said by keeping water in surface reservoirs instead of in the ground and by spraying it through the air to create the snow, around one third of the water evaporated, forming clouds that often travelled to other regions. |
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I find it hard to believe that a third evaporates at temperatures of around -5 to +3 degrees which i believe is the range of temp that you can make snow. Anyone care to substantiate/correct this theory ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ropetow, it's possible - the triple point of water is 0.01C, and given that snowmaking involves blowing it into the air in a very fine mist, then it could well be correct.
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ropetow, Some of the water molecule freezing may supply consequent released latent heat to other water molcules effectively "heating" them so they evaporate. Just because most of the water molecules are heading in a liquid > solid phase direction it doesn't mean that some are not evaportating - it is just about the probablity for individual molecules under those circumstances. Indeed if you look at the home-snowmaking forum snowguns.com you will find a lot of discussion of evaporative loss. Droplet size appears to be crucial see here.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ami in berlin, Agreed there will be evaporitive losses the compressed air used to make the snow will have a very low dewpoint and will carry away some of the water. However this water vapor suspended in the atmospher is not gone for ever it will condence pretty quickly in Alpine conditions, possibly not in the same valley but equaly as possibly so. This still seems to me scaremongoring with a local intrest bias.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I doubt de Jong has it in for the ski-industry, but I know what research is like, and in order to attract funding then this is the sort of research that is needed - you know, something that will grab the attention of other academics and the press. Chances are this may have started off as as one undergraduate student's final year research project.
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| newbie45 wrote: |
| This still seems to me scaremongoring with a local intrest bias. |
You mean like drinking water?
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You know it makes sense.
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Well, we have a lack of water on the mountain here and consequently only have cannons at low level (the highest is 2,200m) It's amazing how mnay tourists just expect to see cannons right up to the glacier. where do they think the water comes from? when you explain they get quite miffed! No resort should need cannons above 2,000m really, there are too many all over. However here, because of the shortage there are man-made lakes to catch the run off and recycle it for next year. there's massive water recycling in LDA. can't speak for other resorts though. Don't forget also, that much of the artificial snow probably has chemicals in it - it might not be fit to drink.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I read somewhere recently (sorry, too vague) that of all the snow that falls, something like 80% evaporates, and only 20% melts and runs down into streams and rivers. If a given amount of water is turned into snow and spread out thinly over a large area, especially on a sunny slope, rather than being concentrated in a watercourse or reservoir, then presumably more of it will be lost to evaporation? It seems to me perfectly plausible to argue that increased snowmaking could lead to local water shortages; the argument that "it all goes somewhere" is a bit simplistic.
Coming back from LDA yesterday I was very surprised to see the big dam at the bottom of the road (Lac de Chambon?) was practically empty, despite all the snow melting which has been going on. Is that normal for this time of year? The whole area looked dessicated and dusty and there seemed to be a lot of dead (as opposed to just dormant) trees, too. Some places might have plenty of water at the moment, but lots don't.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Its cowdoo.
they get more rainfull in spring ,summer.Autumn than they get snow in winter
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The research may very well be legit, but it seems to me the bigger issue is all the energy needed to produce snow. I don't think it will be all that long before US East Coast ski areas start to employ tarps. My first ski trip to the alps isn't for 10 1/2 months (I hope), but I can't image that covering mountains of that size with man made snow could possibly be neutral to the environment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Its cowdoo.
they get more rainfull in spring ,summer.Autumn than they get snow in winter
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a desperate generalisation, stanton. If water in the mountains is so plentiful why such extensive bans on car washing, hosepipes etc, over big areas and several years. This current spring has certainly been extraordinarily dry.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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pam w, here they reduce the level in as many stretches of water as possible at this time of year precisely to accommodate the melting snow to avoid flooding so yes, I would say in general it's normal. Can't talk specifically for LDA of course.
In Flims/Laax they created a new reservoir up the mountain last year, filling in a natural depression and the only artifical material used was the liner. This is used for snowmaking, and the plan is for it to generate electricity in the summer too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Spyderman,
Basically when it melts it can go to other places rather than straight back to the river system which feeds the reservoirs.
Also the time taken to refill a reservoir via meltwater fed rivers is generally longer than the time it is taking to drain the reservoirs
and hence the rivers that feed them.
Also don't forget that as the snow melts it can evaporate and then the water vapour can get moved by winds far away from where it started.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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First law of thermodynamics
You can never win, you can only break even.
Second law of thermodynamics
You can only break even at absolute zero.
Third law of thermodynamics
You can never reach absolute zero.
Life's a bitch. 
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laundryman, 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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eng_ch,
I won't eat people, eatin' people is wrong because I'm a gnu on a scarlet painted london transport diesel engine 97 horsepower omnibus
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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GrahamN, you need some status cymbals to accomany that
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eng_ch, I'm a gnu, a gnother gnu, i'd really like to gnash my teeth at you!!
Flanders n Swan - ace.
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