A-frame help

A snowHead

here's a recent pic of me skiing - Engelberg, mid-Jan, spring snow (!). AMgle was probably a little steper than it looks - camera pointing up hill a little.

http://www.biglines.com/photos_large.php?photo_id=71534

There's an obvious a-frame. Questions:

1. should I be worrying about it - is my technique in the photo limiting?
2. how should I go about removing it?

context - as I remember I was consciously skiing with a lot of outside ski bias - the skis are not particularly shaped and I was trying to bend them into a tighter turn. I wonder if the A-frame was a consequence of this - rehearsing the position it feels like it would be quite awkward to tip my inside ski more while applying nearly all my weight to the outside ski

thanks for any ideas

J

A snowHead

Jedster,
A few of questions (none meant as insulting, but as fact finding):
1. Have you had your boots properly fitted/set up for you?
2. Do you have an a-frame going the other direction?
3. Is there an a-frame when you ski on piste?
4. How long have you been skiing?
5. When did you last have lessons?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I ain't no teach, but when I practice this I find if I straighten my outside leg a little more by twisting my bum more to the inside of the turn, the A frame disappears and I get the same edge on each ski.

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It would be handy to see this turn as a sequence, as i'm not getting the full picture.

It looks like you are close to the end of the turn, so just try these movements next time your on the snow. And see how you go!

Push your outer ski forward a bit more and also open up your stance a tad by moving your inner knee into the centre of the turn. Straightning
the outer ski a smidge would put you in a stronger stance, just make sure this movement dosent effect the possi of your hips. A quick self-check is to make sure that your hips, knees, feet are in line.

You need a friend to help out with this- Stand in your normal skiing stance and get a freind to push down on your shoulders. Then try this with flexed legs. Which is the stronger position??

Snowing in Cham today

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jedster, it doesn't look too shabby to me!

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WTFH

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

It's a great picture as well. Whereabouts was it taken?

jedster,

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What are you trying to achieve in your turning? The tracks show quite a big skid around the turn, do you want to skid or are you trying to carve more around the turn?

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Jane L, I'm not sure the snow conditions would favour much more of a carve than that. (could well be wrong, but it looks kinda soft on top)

Two things I'd consider:
1. Stand up more - you seem quite hunched. Hunching may well limit how easily you can get your inside leg out of the way.
2. Get your inside leg over more - if you look at the ski bases, the inside ski is a lot flatter than the outside. If you can get your inside leg further over e.g. push the knee in further, then you'll have more room for the outside leg.

And one more thing to consider - I'm not an instructor, so take these thoughts with a major pinch of salt!

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jedster,

1)video would be good....
2)would be best to take all advice with the qualifications/experience of advisor in mind.... (I can say that Fastman is very good... and you could count on easiski and I would guess veeeights advice should be pretty much Ok .... ) but then I'm a lesson junky and quite fussy who I learn from having my own learning needs which tend to make me particular re instructors (i like race guys and straight talkers and biomechanically trained folks.. they work better for me than sweetness and light blow smoke up back bottom types).... eg I loved my lesson in Italy - with recently retired WC racer... but he is NOT into playing sweet talking... he is GOING to make you ski better... and you'd better be prepared for the work!

If you do want feedback from Fastman you may want to send him a PM... I know he is happy to help those that want help...

Jane L,

As Fox says it was soft (spring snow as I said at the top). I disagree that there was much skidding going on there is snow displacement but I'd argue not edge displacement -look at my tracks, I'd say that's a pretty smooth, natural arc. Clearly as the snow is soft - the ski is in the snow and the outside part (edge/sidewall) will always cause a ploom of snow to be thrown up. Of course I have the advantage of knowing how that turn felt too!

petemillis,

photo is on the Jochpasse side of Titlis, Engleberg.
<url>http://www.titlis.ch/Titlisoben.jpg</url>
There is a two man chair called Engstlenalp. We traversed around immediately from the top of the lift to get to the sunny slopes skiers right of the chairlift. It's mainly gentle off-piste although the exits down to the chair steepen up and require care.

THere may be some truth in what you say about starting to tip the inside ski first.

WTFH,

1. yep, fair point I do look a bit hunched. I'm a bit surprised by that - have tended to be a little stiff-backed in the past. I have been making a conscious effort to roll my shoulders forward. STill think this is right but maybe I'm over-doing it

2. yeah, agree - this was the first thing I saw when I looked at the photo - my question is really how to get the inner ski more tipped! Your point 1 may help as may Pete's earlier suggestion.

Thanks again, I'll try to get some video or a sequence when I'm away next week. It is quite difficult to work out what was going on from a single shot.

J

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

OK, just did a quick experiment at the coffee machine...

Stand upright (no slouching) with your legs very slightly flexed (i.e. don't lock your knees).
Now tip your left foot outwards, so that your left knee is moving away from your right knee.
Go back to standing normally.
Now flex down a bit lower, so you've dropped down maybe 30cm in height.
Tip you left foot again. Get it over to the same angle.

For me (at least) it was a lot easier to get the foot tipped over when I was more upright - doing it lower down to more effort from my muscles.

A snowHead

Wear The Fox Hat, Thighs High.

A snowHead

jedster - i'd say you look hunched because of butt not back (ie if you fixed the butt the rest would maybe be Ok)

but it is so hard to tell from 1 still we do not know what has happened before and after to have you in this position...

and then while there is all sorts of stuff to say you should "fix" what is the cause of the problem...no point fixating on the result and not fixing cause....

eg inside hand is dropped... is this lazy habit? are you waving arms around to get some movement going? If so WHY? (eg what is happening or not happening that you feel the need for this)

This is the stuff that the good guys do well... look for causes - for the ONE thing that will give you the best change by fixing... attempting to fix lots of small stuff that are not causes gives less bang for buck...IMHO

I'd get some video and get professional feedback (but I'm fussy)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

petemillis, yup, just trying to illustrate it in a different way.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

just had a thought - lack of ramp angle on the fritschis vs normal alpine binders won't have helped my butt positioning

not saying that I'm perfectly centred on my Stormriders but it's something I should check out.

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by the way Fox, just repeated your coffee machine experiment and
A) I concur
B) I'm getting strage looks
and
C) thanks for intriguing your colleagues on my behalf

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

jedster, my coffee machine is in a quiet corridor (at least it's quiet for 45 minutes of the hour when my French colleagues aren't on a break)

So, my theory is...
Less crouching = easier to get the inside leg out of the way.

...and since skiing is supposed to be easy, then that sounds like a good theory to me.

Now, during your next trip to the coffee machine, try picking up the left leg and tipping it over - try that standing up, and try it in a position more like you are in the pic.
What I mean is: Pick up your left foot, then tip it so that your shoe is touching your lower calf. You end up in a stork-ish kind of position, and may even start singing "I'm a little tea-pot"...

After all it is free

The last person I know who did it up against a coffee machine ended up on a disciplinary...

petemillis, yeah, but whose knees was he trying to get further apart?

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jedster - it looks none to shabby to me.

Have you seen veeeight's thread on the subject.

Personally, I'd say equal edge angles are the thing you should be aiming for.

What do you think the picture tells you about the edge angles?

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difficult to tell from one photo, so, with that caveat:

for me, if i were coaching you, the first thing i would work on is not letting that outside foot get caught back like that. the outside ankle looks over flexed, my focus to you would be to try and maintain level ski tips througout the turn (ie: minimise the inside tip lead).

and then have a look at the a-frame after that has been fixed.

ps. you probably have to be hunched like that (which is ok) to compensate for your backpack.

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Hi Jedster. It's really tough to give insightful feedback from a single image. Even tougher when that image is located early in a transition. That said, I throw out a few ideas for you.

* veeight is right about the backpack. Wearing it will require you to pitch forward more to compensate for the trailing weight.

* A retraction transition (sucking the legs up as the body crosses over the skis) can/will also cause forward flexing at the waist.

* At any given edge angle, the slower you're skiing the more you'll need to angulatie to stay balanced on the outside ski. (you're skiing in powder)

* At any given edge angle, the less sidecut the ski possesses, the more you'll need to angulate to stay balanced. (you said the skis had less sidecut)

* Knee angulation provides more bang for the buck (in regard to angulating us) than hip angulation.

* Hip angulation is a stronger, safer form of angulation. Use it when you can.

* Generally, the more ramp under your feet, the more the hips will fall back to compensate.

* Parallel shins are generally a worthy thing to strive for, but it's not law. http://ronlemaster.com/images/2004-2005/slides/schlopy-natls-2005-gs-1.html

veeeight,

Thanks for the input.

Please don't take this as a rejection of your comment - I'm just trying to understand better because I find that I can make a lot of corrections to my skiing provided I understand what I'm trying to do and WHY I'm trying to do it.

I've generally thought that ankle flex was a GOOD THING in that most skiers don't get enough. What are the consequences of excessive ankle flex / excessive tip lead? I've never really understood that.

Thanks again,

J

You know it makes sense.

jedster, from my (limited) understanding, tip lead makes it more difficult to make changes without a lot of effort. (back to making skiing easy).

Let's go back to the coffee machine experiment (we'll switch legs today)...
Put your left leg slightly in front of you, and bend it slightly, but straighten out your right leg behind you. (it doesn't need to be too straight) - you should be vaguely in a distance runner's starting position, hopefully with your right foot around 30+cm behind the left - but they don't need to be lined up. You've got yourself some tip lead going on!
Now try tipping your right foot outwards and then inwards.

Decrease the "tip lead" down to maybe 10cm, so that your right foot is lined up with the arch of your left foot.
Is it easier to tip the right foot now?

What about when the feet are level?

Which is the easiest to be able to move your feet?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

jedster, I think the angle from which the photo was taken makes the tip lead look a lot worse than it is

A snowHead

FastMan,

Thanks.

A retraction transition (sucking the legs up as the body crosses over the skis) can/will also cause forward flexing at the waist.
Yes, I think some of that is going on. I think about the transition as relaxing the outside leg rather than "sucking up the legs" but I think that's somantics and the result is the same.

Hip angulation is a stronger, safer form of angulation. Use it when you can
Because the outside leg is in a stronger position - more skeletal/less muscular suppport?

I think for all the reasons that you suggest I was really trying to pressure/angulate the outside ski in that turn - guess there is no surprise that this emphasis resulted in different edge/shin angles.

In a way, I guess this is where I came in - is the technique functional? I think your point about hip vs knee angulation is an answer - "yes but perhaps not in turns with really large forces"

J

A snowHead

jedster,

I'd again suggest you get some video footage for Fastman to analyse (and veeeight)....

oh and don't start him off on the transitions... you'll have a whole set of threads Twisted Evil

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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veeeight,

OK get that.

Thinking back, I think I was probably still consciously pressuring the outside ski. Even if you regard this as a legitimate technique (and I know some don't), I guess I was hanging on to this too late in the turn

J

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

veeeight - could you elaborate on the pictures please...?

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pic1 - skis at maximum edge angle, some call this end of phase 3, ankles flexed to deal with pressure.

pic2 - skis flat in transition, ankles fully extended.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

veeeight, is it just me or is the guy in pic 2 in the back seat? (hips/shoulders well behind knees/ankles)

After all it is free

Wear The Fox Hat, He looks "in the back seat" to me too. But both pics look like they've been angled to make the slope look steeper Confused

.

aaah the dangers of freeze frame single shots. in those particular two shots, he appears a little towards the rear. i would prefer more of the canadian crouch, back and shoulders rounded to bring them ahead of his toes. but if you watch the whole sequence, it think you will agree that on the whole he is well balanced.

this is performance skiing, as to whether you think the pics have been angled or not to make the slope steeper you can watch the whole sequence for yourself.....

http://www.yamakei.co.jp/ORG/dvd/913900.wmv
(Right-Click, Save As)

from previous post:

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veeeight, That's a great bit of vid, and something I like in particular is that it clearly demonstrates that "perfect efficient carving" isn't everything. From reading a lot of threads and talking to a lot of people, it would seem that many people get hung up on perfect carving technique forgetting everything else. In reality, it's only one small part of what people should be looking for to ski the whole mountain.

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