 Poster: A snowHead
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Howdy peeps 
Was out in Val Thorens a couple of weeks ago. Had a great time and improved no-end over the first few days with the help of a few 1-2-1s with the ESF. As i have a few more trips lined up this year i thought i'd treat my skis to their first service and took them to the nearest store in resort. I'm no expert (to say the least - i'm a beginner nudging hard on the intermediate plateau) so didn't specify edge angles etc, just a wax and sharpen.
This was midway in to the hol. The next day i picked my skis up (Volkl unlimited S1), gave a cursory inspection and headed off. First run of the day, oh dear! It was like being back in ski school... i found the skis so grabby and, well for want of a better description.... different e.g. unpredictable edge release exiting turns (particularly my weaker left turn).
So this different characteristic of my skis post service, is it down to:
1) the fact that they were 'detuned' slightly from the shop when new and i am now experiencing them as they ought to be
2) just one of those things ... that freshly serviced skis take a bit of getting used to at first
3) indicative of limitations with my technique, of which there are doubtless many!
4) that the shop that carried out the service changed the edge angle and thus introduced this difference
... or a combination of the above.
I'm considering having them looked at over here before i head off again in a couple of weeks, i'd rather have them back as they were and enjoy myself than spend most of the week flailing about!
Guidance please?
Regards,
Ian
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ian010, Welcome to  's. Sounds (to my limited knowledge) like they might have been a bit de-tuned before you started, but Spyderjon is your man, I'm sure he'll be along shortly with some expert suggestions. One from me - if you can get to Nottingham take your ski's to him - he's a real craftsman.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ian010, welcome to snowHeads & sorry to hear of you woes.
There's usually two reasons for this:
- they changed the factory angles as shops usually just put the skis through their preset machine. However, your Volkl factory specs are 1 degree base edge angle & 2 degrees side edge angle which is what most shops have their machines set to. If the store had recut your base edge to a shallow angle, say 0.5 degrees, then the skis would feel 'grabby' as only slight tipping would engage the edge. Your description of how they perform does not match that scenario.
&/or
- they did not remove the hanging burr that's raised on the side edge angle (if hangs over the base edge) that was caused from tuning the side edge angle. This step is often overlooked by stores but only a small burr can make the ski behave erratically - in fact very much how you have described. This would therefore be what I'd recommend that you check for first. Put the skis base upwards & horizontal, rub you fingertip from the centre of the base out to the side of the ski. You're looking to feel a slight burr as your fingertip goes over the outside edge of the base edge. Sometimes you need to slide the end of your fingernail over the edge to detect the burr. Once found the burr is easily removed by with either a Arkansas stone, Diamond file or Gummi stone.
If you're anywhere near Nottingham I'd be pleased to give them the once over for you.
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AxsMan - thanks for the welcome, and you were right Spyderjon came to the rescue poste-haste!
Spyderjon - i'll have a look at them and do the burr test as you suggest. I'm not too far away from Nottingham (i'm in north east lincs) so many be inclined to bring these and my girlfriend's skis (which are due for servicing) over to you regardless. If you'd be so kind as to PM me with details we'll take it from there.
Cheers
Ian
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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spyderjon, just for future reference, what do you charge to service snowboards please? The usual ptex a few scratches/scrapes, wax & edge?
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ian010, The grabbing could also be the wax they used on the ski's. I had a situation last week where my rentals just had the normal wax applied to them. When the temp dropped and we had more snow they "grabbed" and nearly had me off on a fast shuss. When I took them back that day, the technicians admitted that the wax they put on is cheap and not very good, but as they were not that busy said they would re-wax with the cold wax / hot iron. The difference was remarkable.
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spyderjon, That happened to me once - competent intermediate/advanced skier, I don't fall over very often, newly serviced skis and a feeling that the tails were grabbing behind me on each turn. Eventually crashed rather ignominiously in some slushy stuff at the end of a piste. I put it down to the edges being 'too sharp' but spyderjon's explanation seems more likely to cover it.
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Thanks guys, i'm off to see spyderjon at the weekend and will report back on the Dr's diagnosis!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thanks for the advice AxsMan and Spyderjon, I will give it a go. It does however confirm my opinion it is one of the dark arts.
Great forum 
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Static, there's lots of homemade waxing brews created by plastic racers. My plastic racing base prep would be to get as much wax into the base as possible (either Dominator base prep wax or SKS uni) with loads of brushing between applications. Then apply Datawax Polar X as a final coat(s) - making sure that you scrape it off whilst still warm otherwise you'll need chisell to get it off - then loads for brushing etc. Zardoz Notwax teflon overlay adds additional protection & some out of the start zip, although on plastic racing you'll need to wipe it for every run. After that you're into more upmarket/expensive fluouro overlays.
Note the Polar X is a flouro wax & so the skis should be regularly hot scrape cleaned as flouro dries the bases out.
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You know it makes sense.
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spyderjon, how much does the tuning DVD cost, couldn't see a price on your website. I've been toying with the idea of doing my own wax & edge after each trip, even went so far as to buy a file in the snow & rock sale which has not yet been out of it's package!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Note the Polar X is a flouro wax & so the skis should be regularly hot scrape cleaned as flouro dries the bases out. |
I've seen you say this several times, but either you're wrong or I have no idea what you mean. My slalom skis have only ever been treated with Polar-X (+ a fair amount of Notwax topdressing - lasts for about 20metres if you're lucky, and liberal coatings of Tescos Value washing-up liquid for added lubrication - 13p a litre can't be wrong  !), and there's no evidence of dryness...zip...nada.
Except of course for the one time I went to a Permasnow slope, when there was significant dryness along the edges underfoot....but that's what would be expected from the accompaniment of an unpleasant smell of burning Ptex and the odd bit of smoke  .
ian010, when you say "grabby", what exactly do you mean? A) That they hook up more than you expect on a turn and pull you into it, or keep you in it when you're trying to get out of it? or B) that you're cruising along flat and the skis stop under you. If the former then detuning the tips and tails is probably in order, or as you surmised you're just not used to skiing with sharp edges  . If B) then it's probably that they've put on some crappy wax. This has happened to me twice. First time was after an in-resort service, when it took about an hour before the skis ran as well as before the service. Scared me quite a bit before they started running properly. And before anyone chips in twith the rubbish technique argument , the same thing was happening to a way more experienced skier than me who had also had her skis serviced at the same time.
The second time was when I waxed the skis myself with a wax that probably designed for too high a temperature for the (very cold) snow at the time, and I had left too much wax on the ski (I normally wax for plastic dryslopes, where the matting kindly removes for you any excess you leave on in no more that a run or two). Giving the bases a good scrape with a bit of plastic I had with me, and then giving them a coating of Notwax solved the problem fine.
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Poster: A snowHead
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GrahamN, Yes Polar X is definately a flouro wax & it's 'common' tuning knowledge that fluoro's can dry out the bases, with Dominator, Toko & Holmnekol all saying to hot scrape clean after using their flouro's. To be honest I do very little waxing with Polar or other flouro's so I've no personal experience of bases drying out.
BTW Graham, I now stock Metalgrip in short lengths if you're still after some.
nbt, My website's still in development, including the online shopping facility  . The DVD is £11 in P&P.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN it's definately more A than B! At the time i was trying to focus on making my turns smoother, more controlled and less rushed. Being under the guidance of ESF much time had been spent on previous days getting a really good 'feel' for the edges and a controlled transition to slip sliding for traversing the piste. I wouldn't say i had it nailed pre-servicing but i was very confident and my turns felt really good.
After the skis had been serviced, i couldn't establish anything like the same level of sublte control. By grabby i mean that i would find myself catching the odd edge when simply pootling along a flat but more noticeable was the effect it had noticed on my now-crappy turns... the tails in particular would stay engaged long after i expected them to let go, which would then cause my weight to be thrown back like a complete beginner.
The more i think about it the more i suspect that the skis had been detuned from new. I'll give nevisport a call and as if this is standard practice.
Cheers,
Ian
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ian010, sounds like you need the tips and tails detuning (but keep the main edges sharp). Shops now normally keep the edges sharp right from tip to tail, but this does allow them to start the turn very early and keep the turn going right to the end. If you're not expecting this (or deliberately want a more slidy type of style - as is common off-piste) this can be a problem. Take an abrasive rubber or stone and slightly blunt from the widest point of the tip forwards, and widest part of the tail backwards - and you may want to take it a few centimetres back from those points towards the middle of the ski too (but don't do it too much). I don't normally do that detune on my skis as I normally want as much grip on the turn as I can get.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ian010, before going ahead and detuning, check for the hanging burr. Then, before detuning, are you sure you weren't just a wee bit knackered the following day and getting in the back seat a bit? Or maybe you were more confident, driving the skis a bit harder and then being surprised at how well they held out of a turn. You say it's the tails not letting go, rather than the tips grabbing too soon. Perhaps your weight wasn't forward so much on your shins.
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petemillis - all good advice thanks. I've checked for hanging burr and will be taking my skis to spyderjon at the weekend for an expert once-over. I had another couple of days on them after the service and things got marginally better as i tried to adjust so i'm as sure as i can be that it wasn't due to tiredness or shift in technique. I've spoken to nevisport where i bought them from and they say that they send the edges out in factory condition i.e. they only wax them before sale. I've no idea what this implies, i guess it's down to whatever Volkl stipulate.
If it does look like a de-tuning excercise i'll take a stone on hols and very gradually tinker. If i can establish a half-way-house then hopefully by the next service i wont need to bother.
Thanks again for all your suggestions
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GrahamN, Rather than detuning I'd check what the base edge angle is. They could be shallow (ie 0.5 degree) which would make the skis unexpectedly grabby. My preference to detuning/dulling the edge at the tip would be to add a tad more base edge angle over the contact area (50mm length max) to allow the edge to feed in less aggressively, whilst still retaining full edge grip once you've got the skis cranked over. This gives the best of both worlds.
petemillis, good advice. Personnally I like my skis to hook up aggressively (side edge sharpened full length to 3 degrees) but they do need need 'subtle' handling which can take a while to get used to.
ian010, Don't panic, we'll check all the angles & give them the once over on Sat.
BTW, whilst most ski manufacturers, inc Volkl, don't actually detune the ski at the factory, unless they're race skis they don't actually sharpen them for the full length so there's actually a bit of 'detune' built in.
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I've been buying skis for 20 years and without exception I would say that after the "first service" a pair of skis never seems to be the same as they were when new, and in my opinion that is usually worse rather than better. This seems to be the case whether the service is done in resort or in the UK on return. Sometimes a subsequent service can bring about a great improvement. A very frustrating business.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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any shops you can recommend near southampton for servicing fischer rx8
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Do edge angles other than the service machine's default make any real difference to recreational skiers? Do small groves and scrapes in the base make any difference? The ski teachers I know just use the default of the ski service shop, then they detune the tips and tails. They also grumble a lot about grabby skis when they forget to detune the tip and tail. My own skis are serviced occasionally by a shop and they look very pretty afterwards. But most of the time I just run a diamond file along the edge (held at about 90 degrees to the base) to deburr it, fill and flatten any bad holes, and apply some wax. Sometimes I don't scrape the wax off as the first run of the day will do any necessary wax scraping.
I appreciate that racers want every advantage they can get and so they need good ski tuning. But for the rest of us, is it really necessary?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Adrian, SpyderJon probably has some well considered views on this, but for me, as a 'punter' I'd just say that like cleaning your car or motorbike, tuning and waxing your ski's can be enjoyable in its own right, whether or not it's strictly 'necessary'. Further I'd add that for a wuss like me, knowing I have good sharp edges gives me more much-needed confidence on hardpack and ice.
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Adrian, if my skis have been serviced I can feel the difference, both in the way that they hold an edge on hardpack, and the way that they run on the flat. If they've been well serviced then it tends to last longer. I find it much less tiring when I'm skiing on freshly serviced skis, mainly because there is much less poleing involved.
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You know it makes sense.
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Adrian, It all depends upon your performance requirements, time & budget.
Personally I don't 'do' walking or poling so I wax the cr@p out my ski bases so they run quick'n'easy on the flats, which also means they'll easily do a week without further waxing (even on man made snow as in Tignes at Crimbo) & that they handle/turn easily - as I like practicing my braquage drills  .
Do small grooves & scrapes in the bases make any difference to the average skier? No. I prefer to keep repairs down to the minimum as repair p-tex isn't extruded or sintered as per the ski base so won't absorb wax. So long as the damage is just slight & burr free I just leave them as what they are: battle scars.
With regard to edges then regular maintainence to remove any burrs will prolong the life of the ski as removing a very little & often actually removes far less material than having to do a major file/stone resharpen when they're really burred/dulled. Depending on the conditions regular maintenance could be 7/10 days in soft snow to daily on hardpack/boilerplate. In Tignes at Crimbo & in Verbier last week if you didn't tune your edges nightly you really suffered the next day. BTW, I'm talking about hand tuning here not a shop tune that grinds off an unnecessary amount of metal & bases every time which may make them look pretty but does nothing for their longevity.
Being a sad git I tend to whizz over my edges nightly just to make sure (can do 4 pairs of skis & 1 large beer in under 30 minutes whilst Deb's in the shower) which has the benefit of giving me sharp edges for that first run on those hard refrozen pistes before the sun's got to them - which is exactly when I want good edges as nailing those first turns gives me a lot of confidence for the rest of the day.
With regard to a shop's standard tune, few of the ski manufacturer's ship their skis with the same angles, ie Atomic 1,3; K2 0.5-1,2; Rossi 1,1; Volkl 1,2; Head either 1,1 or 1,2 etc. Therefore a shop's 'default' setting, which is usually 1,2 might not match your factory specs - which is how you demo'd the skis, why you liked them & bought them etc. I'm also presuming the manufacturers had good reason why they chose their particular angles. BTW, I also believe that when you're demo'ing a ski you're mainly demo'ing the tune & the binding position, but that's another matter entirely.
Modern shaped skis shouldn't need to be detuned at the tips & tails. Shops often don't go to the trouble of removing the hanging burr raised when tuning which can make the ski feel grabby so users then think they need detuning. In fact a 1 degree base (the standard shop tune) shouldn't feel grabby at all. I tune the edges of my client's skis the full length & no-one has ever said that they felt grabby - even when I tune the 'Luv' range skis to 0.5,2 for timid lady skiers. However I do remove the hanging burr properly. If a ski does feel grabby & has had the hanging burr removed properly then rather than blunting the contact points I'd recommend adding a tad more base bevel to ease the edge engagement in more gently but still retain the sharpness once it is engaged, which gives the best of both worlds.
It sounds to me that you have already sussed out the type & frequency of tuning that suits you so if you're happy with that then great.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I just altered my old B2s to a 2 degree edge angle and found that they really seemed to grip more through the turns, prior to that I couldn't seem to avoid the tails skidding out of the turns. I think that this situation may have originated with a shop tune following a base repair - bet the swine detuned the tails and tips - or at least didn't sharpen then to the same extent as the rest of the edges.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Scarpa, change them to a 3 degree side which is even better - & also great for angle guide sales .
I know the B2's lack of torsional stiffness doesn't make for great edge hold but the factory 1,1 set-up didn't really help either. When tuning B2's I always recommend to client's that I set them to 2 degrees & even managed to set one pair to 3.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks, spyderjon, for the detailed response. Perhaps there is a general misunderstanding as to whether edges are left too sharp at tips and tails as compared to having a burr left from incomplete tuning. I had assumed it was the former and had not even considered the latter. So I am learning.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Scarpa, I've always skied with 3 degree side angles (it's Atomic's factory set-up) & see no loss of durability versus 2 degrees. A good number of the epicski folk have come to the same conclusion. In fact SkiDoc on epic is a former Volkl WC tuner & works for Volkl US & his recommendation is to tune to 3 degrees which is interesting as Volkl's factory set-up is 2.
However veeeight reckoned that his thin edged 3 degree race skis weren't as durable as his other 2 degree skis but maybe that's because they were only ever used on hard pistes(?).
As far as I'm aware Atomic sell more skis worldwide than any other manufacturer & they ship all their skis set to 1,3 including all their powder skis. If it was detremental I'm sure they wouldn't do it.
I skied my 3 degree M:EX's with Marc Gledhill last week who's 8800's are set to 2 degrees & I'd say that both of our skis were equally knackered at the end of each day - as were a couple of pairs of B2 in the chalet that are just 1 degree. Marc's recently changed his VR27 slalom skis from to 3 degrees from 2 so it would be interesting to see if he's noticed any difference.
In tough conditions any edge needs regular maintenance, whatever the setting. And the key to durability is the quality of the polishing as a real smooth 'striation free' edge is waaay stronger than say of the same angle just cut with a file.
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Just to borrow this thread to say to spyderjon, my ski's ran really well all week, I like the feel of the 3 degree angle change from 2 degree Thanks.
The wax job lasted all week with a couple of notwax top ups towards the end of the week and doing an edge tune a few nights (when I could) really helped.
I know it made a difference as one night I rushed it and the next day they did not edge as well. I brought the ski's back on form for the next day.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Any info on how the 3 degree edge compares to a 2 degree when in soft snow off piste? I'd imagine that the two would feel pretty much the same as unless there is hard snow/ice to cut into edge angles would make minimal difference to grabbiness compared with angling the base area correctly.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| Any info on how the 3 degree edge compares to a 2 degree when in soft snow off piste? I'd imagine that the two would feel pretty much the same as unless there is hard snow/ice to cut into edge angles would make minimal difference to grabbiness compared with angling the base area correctly. |
Agreed.
To paraphrase Atomicman off epic who puts it perfectly:
"I'd be amazed if anyone could tell the difference between a 1,2 tune & a 1,3 tune in soft snow. The benefits of a 3 degree side edge will only be noticed when things get pretty firm. On hard snow you'd immediately find a greater degree of edge grip with a 3 degree side edge.
It's the base edge angle that determines how much angulation or inclination is required to engage the edge - & there's a profound difference in the skis characteristics between a 0.5 vs. a 1 degree base bevel.
There is absolutely no downside to 3 degree side edge bevel in any snow condition."
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FAQ
If somebody could shine a light on this it would be much appreciated as I prep the skis regularly and work on getting this effect, and any time saved out in the garage risking life and limb would save grief from the boss 
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