 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm just wondering why these, and certain other "specialist tools" are so expensive? It seems there are so mnay other things that can be used, that cost a fraction of the amount and do the same job. For example, instead of forking out on scotchbrite pads, I buy a pack of 8 sponge backed pan cleaners from Lidls for about £0.60, keep one myself and give 7 to chief cook and pan scrubber! So I have a pad for doing my skis at a cost of about 7 or 8p.
And a true bar/metal scraper - I bought a Draper Engineers Knife Edge Square for £2 from my local motor factors - and it even has a nice little case. It's a precision true bar, its a metal scraper, and by creating a hanging burr on the edge with a file then it's a PTEX scraper.
And the nylon structuring brush - several pounds in ski shops. What's wrong with a 50p nail brush?
And those tack cloths - instead of spending a load on specialist ones from ski shop, what's wrong with paying less than £2 for a pack of 3 from B&Q or Halfords?
And then there's that Swix Fiberlene paper for waxing - 16.50 Euros from Telemark Pyrenees for a pack of however many sheets, whereas you can buy 4 kitchen rolls of about 60 sheets each for under £2!
Obviously, I understand why things like edge tuning file guides are worth the money. But it's the simple things that seem such a waste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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With the exception of brushes I don't use any of those items as they seem unnecessary for a basic service for a recreational skier. As for the brushing the skis I'm not sure what nail brushes you can buy but I don't think I've seen any which are that suitable; too small and not enough bristle density to evenly brush the ski. I've got two Toko brushes (bought in the S&R sale), one soft and one hard which seem to do a good job with both soft and hard waxes. I don't think a nail brush would even come close to doing what the Toko brushes do.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mmm, the nail brush I've got here - yeah maybe the bristle density could be better. I've got to go into the ski shop later and I'll see what's there for not too much money. What I've been doing till now is using the nail brush and it works pretty well, then following that with the pan scrubber and it seems to work well. Mayhaps I'll get converted to a dedicated brush for the skis.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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petemillis, ....... if you feel the need to excercise your 'pot-scrubber' skills, then I can accommodate you at La Roche.... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think Pete has finely summed up the hyperbole and hyper-cost of some skiing related items. I suspect most of us holiday skiers buy this sort of rubbish to vicariously fix our cravings for skiing rather than service our skis professionally. When you look at the costs of 'dedicated' TOKO and Swix products you instinctively know it's uber expensive for what are essentially, brushes, irons, files, wax and so on.
It's refreshing to actually hear someone who isn't blinded by all the pap that exists in this industry.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I know of a TO "ski tech" who used to give skis a tune using a belt sander for the base and angle grider for the edges.
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petemillis, this is called 'marketing'. The people forking over the cash are known as 'suckers'.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| petemillis wrote: |
| ......I've been using my nail brush again for my 3rd pre-ski wax, and although it is smaller than the dedicated £14.99 nylon brush I resisted buying in Surf and SKi the other day......, |
The high street stores want to service your skis/boards themselves so the fact that you're already doing it yourself means that you've already making the biggest savings.
Yes it's possible to find substitute products for the dedicated kit but their performance is almost always lacking in comparison. The question is whether the additional cost is worth it in terms of performance & time etc. Only you can judge that.
BTW, I sell the superb Kunzmann nylon brush for £8.00 my own one has done over 100 tunes & still looks brand new. And anything with Swix or Toko written on it is overpriced.
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spyderjon, Hi Jon. A brush is definitely something I'll be getting, and £8 is cool - I think I might be sold on that. I'm only servicing 5 pairs of skis and 3 boards so I'd imagine a decent Kunzmann brush should last me a good few years!
Something I'm not sure about though is how the performance of a particular Fitzwilliam file sold for say metalworking, would be lacking compared with the same file when sold for edge tuning. And same with things like scrubbing pads (Scotchbrite etc) - you can buy these cheaply for household jobs, or pay more for the same thing when it's packaged as an item for working on ski bases. Surely the packaging can't have much of an effect on the job it does? And a scraper/true bar - why is a £2 engineer's knife edge square going to lacking in performance compared with a metal scraper and a true bar for skis? I don't see how performance and time can possibly be hindered, except for the brush as my one is a bit small. Obviously with waxes - I fully get that and wouldn't use anything other than the proper wax for the job. Although I have been tempted to collect my scrapings, heat them up and pour the molten wax back into the wax container! And I've been tempted to wipe PTFE/Teflon oil additive over the ski bases to see if it does the same as ZN - anyone tried this?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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petemillis, Your're right re those 'little' items not really being any less effective, although I wouldn't personally use a true bar for scraping as it won't stay 'true' for long. BTW you should really use a plexi scraper for scraping off wax so as not to remove any of the base & the metal scraper is for flattening down base repairs. Incidentally my metal scapers already come with burnished edges & at £3 aren't exactly bank busters.
Whilst an engineering file can be used the usual difference between a tuning file is the orientation of the teeth so that the file cuts correctly in a guide. A b'stard file is for initially setting 80% of the edge angle & is too coarse a cut for regular tuning as it will leave striations in the edge. A second cut file & fine file should then be use for the final setting of the edge after which the edge is polished with diamond file(s). After that future maintenance of the edge can be done with just a diamond file, with a fine file being required if they get too burred/dull etc.
I've never tried a PTFE/Teflon oil additive but I'd want to make sure that it had NO petroleum content that will be permanently absorbed in to the base restricting wax absorption.
And for initial brushing after scraping a brass brush is waaay more efficient than a nylon brush - & with the benefit of fancier packaging 
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Something i've found useful is a stanley knife blade for removing ptex. It scrapes ptex away very precisely indeed.
Is it really worth preparing the base with all those brushes and fiberlene paper etc ? Does it make any real difference to base glide for recreational skiing or is just as effective to re wax every couple of days and attend to ptex repairs and edge sharpening ?
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You know it makes sense.
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spyderjon, Hi Jon. I've got a plexi scraper for scraping wax. The metal one I use for checking base level and scraping PTEX. There is absolutely no chance of it becoming untrue - it's tuff as nails!
I was sort of half joking about the PTFE/Teflon oil additive, but now I'm going to check some to see if it does have any petroleum content. Just wish I had a pair of scrap skis here to play with.
Thanks for your filing advice - much appreciated (I was always crap at filing when I worked at Amex - I'd just let it heap up on my desk for weeks on end, and things haven't really changed since!)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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i occasionally chuck my board into the shop in obertauern where they chuck it in a great big machine.. this does something to it, they relieve me off some euros, i get it back.. it looks lovely i go and scuff it up post haste.. why waste time scraping skis when the pubs are open...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Peter S, I think it's definitely worth scrubbing the base after waxing and scraping. Yesterday I read that scrubbing with a Scotchbrite pad to remove excess wax after scraping works just as well as brushing. The important point is to ensure that there is only a very small coating of wax ON the base such that you can't even scrape it off with a nail. It's the wax that is abosorbed into the base that does the work. I understand that if the wax is too thick and the ski structure not exposed that it will increase the suction between ski and snow and hence slow the ski down.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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CANV CANVINGTON, I'm with you!! I'm a pretty seasoned skier but i really don't think my skis need that much attention - a service at the shop, beginning and end of season does it for me plus something imbetween if it's a special occasion!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Peter S wrote: |
| Something i've found useful is a stanley knife blade for removing ptex. It scrapes ptex away very precisely indeed. |
I usually use a v.sharp chisel for removing p-tex which works just like your stanley knife blade.
| Peter S wrote: |
| Is it really worth preparing the base with all those brushes and fiberlene paper etc ? Does it make any real difference to base glide for recreational skiing or is just as effective to re wax every couple of days and attend to ptex repairs and edge sharpening ? |
No. Scrape off the wax & then 3 passes with a brass brush & you're good to go. If racing or require high performance then lots of brass, horsehair & nylon brushing required.
petemillis scotchbrite pads don't do as good a job at cleaning out the structure as pucka brushes as they can't get into the grooves as effectively - but as you say they're waaay cheaper than brass, horsehair & nylon brushes.
Basically everyone's tuning technique is likely to be slightly different as the balance of performance requirement, time & cost is an individual thing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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spyderjon,
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| Basically everyone's tuning technique is likely to be slightly different as the balance of performance requirement, time & cost is an individual thing. |
Indeed - variety is the spice of life. I want my skis to work really well - and they always do even with my methods of doing things. A racer wants his/her skis to work that little bit better than anyone else's and so I can understand why they would wan tto invest so much money, time and effort into it. But i think it's the same with lots of things in life - many mere mortals think they should do something a certain way because that's how it's done at the top of the game, when in reality many of the mere mortals wouldn't know whether their ski was waxed with a good ski wax or a few grams of ear wax or marzipan. And for these people to feel the need to go to so much effort and expense is probably a bit daft. Man, I'm waffling now, but I know what I mean.
PS - don't suppose you do PayPal do you? I want a brush now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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FAQ
- so there's virtually no point in doing anything other than larding on the wax (and you've lost most of your finely honed edges after the second one too 
).
