On the plateau?

A snowHead

Some tips to improve your skiing before you even get to the snow. The importance of coordination and balance, core strength and endurance training. So get down to the gym in plenty of time before next season!

A snowHead

He He . . . I can just see this bunch of bacchanalians knocking on the gym door at 06:00 or running with a drag harness. Though I did hear that at last year's Daily Rabid Ski Show someone endured over 17 minutes in the seat squat. Ankles, knees and hips at 90° with your back against a wall . . . try it!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Oh dear, do I stick my head above the parapet again?

Muscle endurance is a combination of muscle strength and training the metabolic pathways of those stronger muscles. First comes the strength training which takes longer (months) but the effect lasts longer (also months). Then you train the metabolic pathways which doen't take very long (weeks) but the effect disappears quite quickly (weeks or even days).

Most of the muscle endurance training which is commonly advocated is the metabolic pathway training. This training overloads the muscle so it has a strength training benefit also but this form of strength training is fairly inefficient. Good strength training can take only 20 minutes just twice a week. The so called endurance training is usually 30 to 40 minutes for three or four times a week and for most of that time it hurts.

An answer for many skiers is to take part in a recreation which has an endurance training style but the recreation is enjoyable and therefore the hurt is noticed less. Even so a touch of strength training first usually improves the enjoyment of the recreation and gets faster results.

Sprinting of ten seconds against a harness as stated in the article, is a form of strength training but in a rather hazardous form which is more likely to lead to injury.

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john wells, In other words buy and USE a decent set of inline skates, join a Salsa/Siroc club and attend a Pilates/Yoga class once a week.
. . . I was taking the piddle in the above post.
I would argue that 30-40 min of 'endurance' training 3-4 times a week is a 'maintenance' level and that to get the average porker with today’s sedentary lifestyle to a level of strength and fitness to exploit the pleasure of skiing and be truly in control of their equipment would require at least twice that, and be carefully monitored while doing so.
Eg. prat in the x-trainer next to me this morning – about 40, 16stone, muscle-tone worse than mine (and I’ve been on my butt for nearly 4 months) . . . leaps on, sets the load to 4 out of 20 and starts pumping away at about 55 reps/min. . . seven mins. later as his HR hits 205! He stops dead! I mention that this machine is about resistance, control and endurance, his reply . . . “what the f*** do you know”, gets off and grabs the free weights – now ‘that’ was funny to watch.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

So with about three months to go, how often should I be getting on my exercise bike - and for how long at a time? I have a pretty sedentary lifestyle.

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Let's try again.

For the best results you do not use that exercise bike much until the last month. Strength train for two months. Two times a week if you have good form and can push yourself to total failure in one set in less than two minutes on each exercise (that is to the point where you cannot do another rep), three times a week if you are good but not that good. ALWAYS rest for at least 48 hours after training; that is no great exertion such as more heavy training or double digging the garden.

If you want to use the bike, combine this with the strength training in the same session.

For the last month do some form of interval training and reduce the strength training to once a week. For this last month, doing strength training with lighter resistance and going to failure in longer than two minutes is recommended by some. Still lay off for 48 hours after a heavy training session.

If you have a pretty sedentary lifestyle and you are unfit, only using the bike to try to raise substantially your muscle endurance in three months would require some fairly extreme exercise which could be hazardous to your health.

If you really, rearly must do it on the bike; after having checked with your doctor that you won't kill yourself - try five sessions a week, each session 20 minutes initially building up to 60 minutes plus. Gradually push yourself harder week by week, say three sessions heavy and intervening two sessions lighter. The three sessions should be some form of interval training; one or two minutes at an exertion level which you cannot maintain, then similar time at a much lesser level; first five minutes warming up; last five minutes cooling down. You will get very sore and you will be bored. As this involves fast movements, you may strain a muscle also.

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Alastair, What do you want to achieve?
But anyway, swap the exercise bike for a real one and use it every day just to start. Just use it for all those trips you usually use the car then every three days stick about 10-15 miles under the wheels. That'll take care of basic heart/lung conditioning and get your legs into moderate shape for some ski specific training. Just don’t go crazy to start with and if you’ve done little exercise for some time get a HRM, learn how to use it and stay within the recommended limits for your age.
30 or 40 lengths in the pool every 3 days will add a lot to your general condition and balance your upper body condition with your legs. Beyond that I wouldn’t worry too much about lots of expensive gym routines until your general fitness is good and you can start training for specifics.
There are many sports centres that can give you a general fitness assessment including a bleep test as a base measurement.
The above should cover any age up to 75, BUT if you’re over 50 or have had a really sedentary life, on medication or smoke. SEE YOUR GP FIRST and tell him what you’re planning, get your blood pressure checked and be careful.

After all it is free

john wells, Think we might have to differ on considering strength training as a starting point. Especially if we don’t know the state and age of the victim. Since hypertension is a real risk/danger in those circumstances. As I recall there were 6 strokes (one fatal I think) in UK gyms last year and in one personal known case, turned a minor heart murmur into a full-fledged valve replacement. I don’t disagree with your premise that short intense, targeted resistance training is ideal for gaining muscle strength. I just question the timing for its application to this bunch of sofa-spuds. And there's nowt better than getting a more active lifestyle rather than relying on short bursts of intense activity every two or three days.

Masque, yes we differ. For general lifestyle and recreational sport, I consider strength is more important than any other fitness attribute. Strength is the foundation on which other forms of fitness are built.

If the strength training is done with slow, controlled movements the injury risk is probably the least of any exercise. The hazards are fast movements, lack of control, holding your breath, gripping tightly and poor form. I am not suprised that there have been strokes and heart problems; the standard and quality of the exercise in most gyms is appalling.

The difficulty about giving advice like this on the web is the lack of detail. We are trying to cram two or three hours of instruction into a few lines.

For an unfit person the gentle introduction to exercise is in fact a poor form of strength training. Why not do proper strength training which will produce faster results, take less time and cause less soreness?

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I'm not sure I like the sound of intensive strength training after a period of inactivity. Especially for the 40 somethings. I was pretty much laid up over a lengthy chunk of last season, well into the summer, and have just started getting back into exercise. My regime includes a gentle build-up of both strength and endurance training, with the emphasis on regularity and continual improvement. How far you go depends on many factors, including health/weight/age, as Masque suggests.

A quick mention too for the coordination/balance aspect... some skiers swear by the wobble board as the ideal tool to improve proprioceptive response and reaction time, control over movement in all directions, general balance. I watched a friend using one with his eyes closed some time ago, then tried myself. Failed miserably. Has to go on the purchase list for my rehab programme!

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Masque, I suppose I want to improve my general standard of fitness. I'm mid 40s and slightly overweight, but nothing to stop me getting a CAA medical for flying. I become aware of the need to do something when I'm on the slopes.

This talk of strength training is confusing me - what sort of exercises are being suggested? I'm not anticipating becoming as fit as a 20 year old - I'd just like to be able to ski more energetically and for longer.

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john wells, OK I think we’re getting somewhere:
I get the impression that you’re either a ‘gym bunny’ or you’re in the fitness industry. I would accept that a man or woman in their mid 20s or someone in their 30s who’s has a ‘active’ lifestyle could approach a fitness regime from your viewpoint, but there are some fundamental issues to be addressed.

movement

For the average ‘middle-aged’ punter floating around this forum, advocating strength training as the primary regime is akin to bolting an NO2 kit to an Austin Allegro and expecting the drive-train to stay in one piece.
Don’t get me wrong, what your saying is correct . . . but only if the underlying body condition is good. But that’s not something that these days can be said of the vast majority of people. General fitness levels and exercise knowledge need to be much higher than they are before embarking on your proposed regime. I also get the impression that you’re looking for the quick fix. And getting ‘sore’ is not a necessary part of exercise and can be easily aleviated.

I’ll illustrate my point. Back in the early 80s, the ‘Praras’ were looking at their med discharge and ‘unfit for duty’ rates. An external review brought in a couple of coaches from the Royal Ballet. This was treated with great derision and a match test was set. The dancers wipped *rse in endurance, strengh-v-body mass and recovery rates. Much more endurance and flexibility training was introduced to the military program and unit RfD rate went up by 12%.

As a recreational activity, our’s is a sport that requires our bodies to have strength, endurance, flexibility and balance. Our exercise program has to reflect these needs.
If you’re a competitive athlete it’s a different ball game, I get the feeling John that you have already a good fitness level and that you treat your skiing as a serious pursuit. Just don’t expect the beer monsters around here to be able to perform at your level . . . at least not until their general fitness will allow them to benefit from it.

Masque, I accept all of your criticisms about strength training when directed at the type of strength training practised by most exercisers. The problem is that this type of strength training is incorrect - it may be practised by most exercisers but it is still incorrect - it may be practised by nearly all bodybuilders but it is still incorrect - it may be practised by many elite athletes but it is still incorrect.

If strength training is done correctly it is the safest exercise you can do - it increases flexibility not decreases it - it gets fast results with a minimum stress on the whole body - it improves cardiovascular fitness.

There are so many myths and poor practises in the fitness industry and very little science. Unfortuneately much of the poor practise is taught within the industry by the experts.

This type of discusion has been held before on the SCGB forum - so bear with me with what I wrote there. For the relatively unfit recreational skiers which physical characteristic limits their skiing?
Is it because they run out of puff? - no, they just stop and get their breath back.
Is it because their legs are burning so much on a bump run that they have to stop permanently? - no, they just stop and rest and then start again.
Is it because they get tired and have to come off the piste before the end of the day or risk an accident through tiredness? Well maybe. For a given level of exertion, having stronger muscles will allow the recreational skier to last until later in the day. Of course, if they are stronger they would probably raise their level of exertion which brings us back to square one.

Maybe I should add that the greatest improvement could well be to improve their technique but that is a separate discusion and I am only dealing with the fitness side.

You know it makes sense.

john, there's the nub . . the level of care and knowledge you're stating that's needed for your program is, by your own words, unavailable to most of us great unwashed. So unless you’re going to do an exercise vid for us, we have to deal with the everyday practicalities that most of us face and that’s lifting our fitness level to point where we’re safe, in control, and able to (more than) survive and enjoy a week or two on the snow and fitting exercise into our daily commitments.

You tell us. . .

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Have been a bit confused by this thread. Clearly the majority of us don't have access to the pro training facilities required (john himself says the gyms are hazardous places to visit in many cases....) Masque's 'compromise' solution seems sensible to me.

A snowHead

Elite athletes frequently do not stay injury free and sometimes the damage is done while training in the gym.

There are two downsides to the incorrect training; one - it takes more time and effort than is necessary; two - it depletes the body reserves for longer which has knock on effects for further training.

A pro gym is not necessary, any gym with reasonable equipment can be used - just be wary of the advice given - if you are unfit, four of five compund exercises or seven isolation exercises which hit the large muscle groups are all that is needed using either machines or barbells - one set to failure not multiple sets - each exercise taking maximum two minutes, out of there in 15 to 20 minutes.

This exercising can be done without a gym but it gets harder to exercise safely.

A snowHead

john wells, can you point me in the direction of some (preferably on-line) research ref the "one set to failure" rather than multiple sets?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Alastair, being in a similar situation to you, I am also interested in this. There is a page on this on the Ski Club website. http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/fitness/fitness.asp I would be interested to know if others would agree with the recommendations.

It seems to make sense and at least it puts the information in a language and manner that even I can understand!

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Ray Zorro, I'm surprised that there is no mention of training specifically geared to improving balance (ie using the likes of wobble boards, although there are are efficient exercises for proprioception and balance that require no equipment)....

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John Wells is posting about a very specific form of weight/resistance training that puts targeted muscles (groups) into a controlled overload that breaks cell walls and triggers a reaction in the cell to repair itself in anticipation of greater stresses. It’s an accelerated form of normal exercise. It’s not particularly new (first published notes about 1940), and when practiced correctly can be v-very effective. BUT it requires intense supervision, a very clear knowledge about your body and limb positioning and a diet to assist in proper cellular growth/repair.
So unless we’re all going out to find a suitably qualified personal trainer – it’s about as much use in this thread as a f*rt in bucket. And I have to say that strength without endurance is vanity and often comes with an orange tan!
To be perfectly honest, most of us need to just get up off our butts in general daily activities to increase our base level fitness and our skiing will improve with that. Bicycling (not the static type) will improve thigh and ankle strength and swimming will work for core strength, torso flexibility and aerobic function. Include these regularly in your life and the benefits will be quick and painless. You can add any other sports related activity to enhance this including supervised strength training and balance training VuDoo-board etc. is a big plus. It’s never too late to buy a skate-board or a pair of in-line skates.
There are many ski specific exercises, but practicing these in isolation will imbalance your body and for us mortals will more likely damage our ski technique.
I will side very strongly with John, in that good technique and to improve your technique requires strength improvement. We only differ, I think, in the starting point and how we achieve that strength.
It is a matter of what suits you, your lifestyle (and probably the need to change it), your body and your goals. Cool

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It works a far smaller range of muscles than a regular bike, usually at a static level, and has a more profound affect on BP - and lastly it's as boooooring as C**P, so limited incentive or reward to keep it up.

After all it is free

Ray Zorro, thanks for that. Makes sense to me and seems to agree with what Masque is saying.

PG - can I come back to you with a list, probably today or tomorrow - health warning, some of the advice and comments will be conflicting so you could get confused.

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john wells, Thanks (I'm very easily confused ... Wink

)

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Do any of you remember the list of exercises published in Ski and Board?
We use these regularly, combined with walking everyday. I'm 42 and find that without visiting a gym, this prep has kept Deb and I injury free, and able to ski demanding slopes/ conditions without third day tight legs.
I, like PG would be interested in advice re exercises, especially if they can be carried out without equipment. I have found flexibility and balance routines have aided my recovery/control when skiing, are there any more to consider beyond the ones found in the above publication?

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PG - try these - the one set to failure is really a Nautilus and MedX protocol as originally instigated by Arthur Jones the founder of Nautilus and then of MedX who is the founding father of most modern resistance machines

http://www.ultimate-exercise.com/articles.html
This is Dr. Doug McGuff who is a convert to super-slow and makes some interesting points.

http://www.superslow.com/
This is Ken Hutchins who did much of the research for Nautilus and was the founder of super-slow.

Books:

Anything by Dr. Ellington Darden although many of his books are out of print now - not to worry, he repeats much the same material in most of his books - he was in charge of research for Arthur Jones at Nautilus.

"Full Strength" by Werner Kieser - he runs a chain of fitness clubs in Switzerland, Germany, Spain, Netherlands and two in London and is another Nautilus/MedX protocol advocate.

Masque - as you guessed, I work in the fitness industry and own two exercise clubs in Bristol.

We put all of our exercisers on one set to failure whatever their fitness level as this is the safest way to train. What is important is slow controlled movements with good form. In the States they are getting good results with senior citizens who can barely walk.

This might be a good opportunity to share views of members of the forum as many are interested in exercise ready for the ski season. Admin is looking for a number of articles on the subject and I will kick off with a new thread.

You know it makes sense.

john wells, "one set to failure not multiple sets"

Does this mean it's better to do one set of, say, thirty five until you can't lift again rather than five complete sets of ten?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

john wells, Thanks john, fascinating. As I'm about to build a small gym (room approx 22 feet by by 14) I'd be very interested in suggestions as to how I should equip it! Don't want to spend a fortune on gimmicky machines. It'll be used for ski-specific fitness training on the whole.

A snowHead

I've got 'full strength' by keiser. got it on amazon, it suits me as I needed to improve my core strength, and being from a running/ endurance background I find weight lifting boring especially the breaks in between sets. Full strength gets it done quickly and has assisted my overall stability.

Good thread peeps.

A snowHead

Hi John, it looks like we’ll be collaborating on an Admin project for Snowheads. I don’t see our different approaches to fitness as mutually exclusive, particularly since our ultimate goals are identical. I’m from the other end of the fitness industry AAAI/ISMA master step and aerobics though I’ve not taught for about 7years. It’s not for no reason I’m known for my ‘most damaged septic award’ (40 year history of falling off or down things).
It’s a bit funny that this thread has gone in this direction since I’m currently using a slightly modified form of the MedX protocol to rehab a destroyed shoulder (finally – my first proper press-up!) and an achilles rupture repair in May. But since I’m not qualified to instruct the protocol I can’t promote it here to others.
I’ll always forward the premise that, for today’s average couch potato, a change to a better diet and a significantly more active lifestyle to raise basic fitness to a point where structured strength instruction and/or sport specific training will be properly effective, is a more accessible way for Joe Bloggs to prepare for a ski holiday.
Actually this could be quite interesting since I’m older than DG (who’s birthday is very close I think) and I’m trying to get back to the condition I was before my big stack 4 seasons ago.

HG, (not a joke) join a Salsa/Siroc class. Great fun and very good for balance and lower leg strength – and if you’re not married, can be quite ‘interesting’.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Marc, quick explanation - fuller explanation will come later.

A muscle starts to recover within 60 to 90 seconds so if you are trying to overload a muscle it is best to complete the overload before 90 seconds which for practical purposes can be taken out to 120 seconds. After that time the muscle fibres which fired off first will start to fire again so you don't progress to the later firing fibres (muscles contract by multiple fibres contracting and this is an all or nothing contraction - the control function just fires enough fibres to achieve the force desired; if that makes sense).

Any fast or ballistic movement is less effective in overloading a muscle through its full range of motion and is more likely to tear muscles or damage connective tissue. The safe way to train for strength is to use slow movements.

For the Nautilus protocol you are looking to do eight to twelve reps in the maximum two minutes which means about 9 or 10 seconds per rep. With the super slow protocol you are aiming for about 20 to 24 seconds per rep which means four to six reps.

In each case you aim to load the muscle sufficiently (weights on machine etc.) that you cannot do another rep within that 8 to 12 or 4 to 6. If you do get to the 12 or 6, next work out you increase the load.

The load will usually be in the 80% to 85% of your one time maximum lift for the Nautilus protocol and 60% to 70% for the super slow.

It is important that the movement is slow and controlled, no jerking, no twisting, no explosive movement, no arching, no using other muscles to assist. The most hazardous rep is the first one when the muscle is at maximum power; from then on there is less power available to damage anything. As you get to failure it is not possible to do damage as long as you maintain good form as there is little power left. This is the inverse situation to what you would think. Anyone can use one of their muscles at 65% of its maximum power without doing damage so if you maintain good form you cannot hurt yourself training in this manner.

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Very interesting Masque and john, I've been going to gym classes (body conditioning/circuits) 2-3 times a week since trying to get fit for last season's skiing. I thought I'd try to keep it going throughout the year and I've succeeded! In the past I've found working out in the gym by myself much too boring and my motivation just disappears. Gym classes, combined with playing squash once a week & the odd run, has been really good - I can certainly feel the difference and hope I'll be able to tell the difference come my next skiing Very Happy

I was interested to hear you talk about a wobble board & have now looked them up on the net - never heard of them before but they do look good for core stability. Are they worthwhile doing as an additional exercise?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

PG - re home gym.

For cardio equipment a stationary bike is as cheap and reliable as anything. Another option which is very cheap is a step as used in step classes which you could make yourself. Both have a boredom problem so music or a TV could be an option - maybe even a computer set up for web browsing. For total body work out a rowing machine is good - even the commercial ones are not too expensive.

Most commercial machines will be too pricey; bikes and steppers start at about £2,500 - X trainers about £4,500 and the most expensive, least reliable and soonest to wear out (3 years) is the treadmill which goes from £4,500 to £8,500.

Strength training can be done with free weights which are fairly cheap. If you are training on your own (which is not recommended) you should consider some safety cages as, for example, being pinned by your throat to a bench by an olympic barbell is not fun. If you want to get a bit pricey try plates loaded machines which are safer and more controllable. With any of this you must get some decent knowledge first - can be done from books if you are good at taking in information that way or get instruction at a gym first on the type of equipment which you will be using.

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john wells, Have ordered "Full Strength". Ref. gym, I attended a gym four, sometimes five times a week for ten years before moving to France, mixture of free weights and plates loaded machines (increasing reps), plus some fancy programmable machines- running, rowing, cycling. Hardly followed your formula! I had two to two and a half hours for lunch, did the weights in around an hour, plus thirty minutes running/rowing etc, before retiring to jacuzzi/steamroom/sauna. As for the training itself, I always pushed it to the limit rather than staying in the comfort zone. Have to say though that, unsupervised, it's easy to pick up injuries by "pushing to total failure" - I did, several times. It's hard to know when to stop.

Since getting here, other than occasional (rare) use of free weights, my main exercise has consisted of building dry stone walls and skiing Confused

. Really miss my gym sessions!

On another topic, at what age do you think your method of strength training should begin? I ask because the local ski study school has 11 year olds upwards doing some pretty serious training, combining team and individual sports with sessions of sit ups, pull ups, press ups, dips, you name it. Four hours of judo over two evenings, one morning and two afternoons of sports and training during the week off season (the afternoons switching to skiing over the winter), plus all weekend and holidays skiing during the season.

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PG - I bet the pushing to failure was not with slow controlled movements with good form. It is the higher velocity and poor form which does the damage.

There seems to be little research on exercise for kids. It will depend on their stage of development as well as their age. Current standard advice is no problem over about 14 years; less than that it is usually recommended not to overdo the gym training but to concentrate on technique in sport. Might be over cautious but I would not like to be the person who proved that it wasn't. Plenty of evidence to suggest that very young elite sports people wreck their bodies by the time they get to their twenties.

After all it is free

john wells, Slow, controlled movements yes, but form? Probably not, as I got close to maximum. Trouble is it's that final push, when you realise you're on the limit, where you can lose your form.

As for kids, I ensure a minimum of 10 hours' kip, and having done a number of massage courses over the years, plus ITEC, I'm suddenly in demand for more than just opening my wallet Smile

A fascinating thread with some interesting viewpoints.

john wells, I'm 40 and overweight. For the last 8 months I've been attending a gym about 2-3 times a week for a good hour+. I explained my reasons for going to an "instructor", namley weight loss, ski related muscle building and general better all round fitness.

The regime I was given was a 10 minute brisk walk to warm up, 15 - 20 mins on a rower, 2 x 15-20 reps on leg press, knee extensor, chest press, peck deck followed by 5 mins walk to warm down and then stretching.

Over the period the activity has included 6.5 mins running in the 10 warm up, 2 x 40-45 reps on leg press, 2 x 35 on the knee extensor, 2 x 20 on the chest press and peck deck and a hard 5 min cycle, flat out.

My fitness, endurance and general health have risen markedly. The weight loss has been less dramatic, but evident especially with better muscle tone. I anticipate a big improvement in skiing from a stamina point of view. Only time will tell.

From what you're saying though, the reps that I do may well not be as beneficial as I hope because of the speed at which they're done? Not exactly fast, but not as slow as you're suggesting. Be interested on your take on the above.

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Apart from my usual gym routine and rowing, I have joined a power yoga class recently.

It's a mixture of yoga and ti chi (all done to 'Kill Bill' type music) and is fantastic for suppleness and balance (as you have to do lots of things on one leg and bendy stuff). Wink

I'm told skipping is good and skipping rope can be had cheaply.

Help!!

On the plateau?

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