Some great reading on www.youcanski.com

A snowHead

Don't know if you've all seen this or not - I found it while smurfing the web for some ski info. www.youcanski.com has some great explanations and advice on "modern" skiing technique for all levels of skier. I'd like to know whay you instructor ldies and gents think of the site - is there stuff that's not explained too well, or whatever.
I did search the forum for the web address but nuffink came up.

A snowHead

the forum has been around for a bit. the instruction section is a bit "dated".

in describing how to make a turn the idea is put forth to make a wedge and then merely weight the outside ski by bending the outside knee.

"weighting" a ski does nothing to turn a ski. tipping it on edge, rotating, or blending those to movements create a turn. weighting, decambering, or pressuring does not.

that is vestigial instruction straight from 1959 and would pretty quickly get you in a supervisors office at a resort in colorado.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Rusty Guy, Mmm, it's funny you should say that. When I was reading through Leonid Feldmand instruction pages, the first articles do seem dated. But as I read through the carving and dynamic edging pages things seemed more up-to-date. I find he is talking about tipping skis - rolling the ski from the big toe to the little toe - i.e. start tipping outside ski to initiate next turn and so on. This is the page I found particularly interesting
http://youcanski.com/en/instruction/dynamic_edging.htm - seems to make sense, and I think explains things quite well.

Have you had a chance to look at the carving and dynamic edging pages?

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[quote="Rusty Guy"]

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Phil Smith refers to turning using pressure control in his excellent video "ultimate control". He advocates using it in deeper snow. He clearly describes pushing down hard on the outside ski to deform it and create a turning arc. He does show that the ski is also on edge during the weighting process. It's certainly not flat.

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how can you "push down hard"? what are you pushing against in order to generate downward force?

I think what he means is using speed, angulation and unequal weighting to load up the outside ski in order to bend it into a tighter arc. In the process you lock the outside leg in order to resist and transfer the forces but you can't really "push down".

J

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After all it is free

Leonid Feldman leans against a wall.
The whole concept seems quite straightforward - it's balancing forces, and the faster you turn then the more pressure is going to be forced onto the skis. When I ride my offroad motorcycle in the standing position and am going around corners, most of the steering is done with my body and legs - basically leaning into the turn with most pressure on the outside foot, then when changing direction the balance of pressure on feet goes through 50/50 and then the other way. It's the easiest way to steer at speed over rough ground where handlebars are useless!

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Rusty Guy,

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Rusty Guy,

Hold a ski horiziontally in your hands in front of your face. Tip it towards you, does in bend ? NO

Put the ski on the floor,insert your boot/foot into the binding. Tip it towards you, does it bend ? YES Due to forces applied (i.e pressure) from your body mass, gravity & when you are moving centrifugal forces. I am no physicist but this is pretty basic stuff it could even be described as 'vestigal'.

Sorry must go to work. I am doing race training this morning. If the ski does not bend going round the turn there will not be much of the edge in contact with the snow (Imagine a piece of rigid steel). The ski is bending because i have put it on its edge and as it goes round the turn the 'forces' will bend it. Not just because i have put it on its edge.

You know it makes sense.

"lock" wasn't the right word - clearly you vary the tension in the leg to adjust to the forces applied by the forces generated by the turn (but in a tight high speed turn your leg has to be prety firm!)

my point was that unless you have something to push against (like the other person in Phil's demo!) you can't actually push down - you are pushed down by the forces in the turn but the forces are not generated by your muscles!

J

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

jedster, I know what you're getting at, but you can effectively push down pretty hard dynamically on one ski at least. Ok you are using lateral acceleration as a means of force reaction, but it's still conscious application of downward pressure to bend and turn the outside ski. Dynamically, you can apply forces much larger than your own weight. For example, try stamping as hard as you can on a bathroom scale.

A snowHead

J, although you are pushed down by the forces in the turn you do still use your muscles to vary the amount of pressure on each ski. You can see how this works by standing on a set of scales. If you stand still with legs bent then you will get a reading of your weight (which strictly speaking is the force that the mass of your body is exerting on the scales due to gravitational acceleration). Now although you've got nothing to phyisically place your hands on and push against, if you straighten your legs quickly - i.e. push your feet against the scales - then you will momentarilly increase the reading on the scales. This is because you are accelerating away from the scales so the force is now your body mass multiplied by gravitional acceleration + the acceleration you have added. If you quickly bend your legs then the opposite occurs - you are momentarilly decreasing the amount of force that your body mass is exerting on the scales. In each case, the force only changes momentarilly as you can only bend and straighten your legs over a limited distance. In essence, you don't need any physical to push against in order to alter the forces on the skis with your muscles.

Now, with the straighter stiffer skis of old, a lot more force is required in order to get them to bend in an arc - hence as much weighting on the outside leg with lots of lower leg angulation. With the deep sidecut skis, less force is required to get them to bend, and the shape allows them to bend more, and if you are going fast enough then just tipping the ski more will enable the forces your body exerts in the turn to bend the ski more.

Of course, most pressuring and tipping and twisting of skis will be done without thinking about is as your body instinctively responds to the different forces in order to remain balanced and go in the direction you want to go in. It's when you try and think about it too much when doing it that the concious part of the brain takes over and mucks it all up.

A snowHead

pete but we're talking about shaping a ski through a turn not instaneous loading - I think at a constant edge angle you only really do that by altering the weighting between skis (softening the tension in one leg, while holding the other firmer to compensate) "pushing down" doesn't see the right description to me

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

jedster, I s'pose it all depends on what description works best for different people - and softening tension in one leg while holding the other firmer to compensate does make sense to me. And I s'pose it's different depending on turn type - medium and long radius carved turns aren't going to be same as short radius carved turns are they? I'm thinking with the short radius carved turns then the weight distribution between the feets has got to be much more on one ski than the other to get the ski to bend sufficiently. With the longer turns then the difference in weight distribution between the two will be much less. I prefer the description of tilting and pushing agains tthe skis as it's a thing I can feel - I can feel the push through my feet and instantly know how much force I am applying to each ski without even thinking about it. To think about softening and stiffening legs does my head in and draws my attention to my legs - which ain't good as they're alwas aching!
I think we're in agreement though - to turn, skis have to be tilted AND have pressure applied, verying tilt and varying the pressure between skis alters the turn shape

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Back to Phil Smith's video again (sorry to use this one all the time, but I watched it just last week), when he describes the various "steering elements" he does mention that you never use one element in total isolation, but you can "emphasise" the various elements in different turns. eg. turning with "emphasis" on pressure control would mean consciously moving your weight onto the outside ski to deform it; turning with "emphasis" on edge control would mean rolling the skis on edge while maintaining a more even load distribution across the skis. In both cases there would be a certain degree of both pressure and edge steering, but in different proportions.

Or is it not that simple?

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It IS simple - just like riding a bike. All balancing forces using a combination of different elements. That's all there is to it.

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Oh dear.

This old chestnut again.

1. Most of the time, the use of the word "weight" is inappropriate in skiing.

2. You can't "apply" pressure. It's a resultant force.

3. Which is why technical manuals refer to that sensory skill as "pressure control" or "pressure management".

Pressure control is all about managing the forces generated as a result of the turning ski. If you're "applying pressure" at any part of the turn, you're missing the fundementals.

BASI sometimes talk about active and passive pressure, which is a fudge to bridge layman understanding with physics. Rather like centrifugal force.

Build or create pressure, yes, apply pressure, no.

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yeah veeeight, I think that is what I was trying to say - you use the forces generated by the turn, the varying tension in your legs allocates those forces differently

anyway - this is probably one of those areas where different language achieves the same thing for different people

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If we're going to get pedantic about terminology then Pressure = force / area. ie. pressure is not actually a force at all, but is directly proportional to force
So in everyday language we often interchange force and pressure, meaning the same thing.

Rusty Guy, Sure, turning by tipping the skis is a great way of steering, particularly on modern skis, but it says nothing about how your weight is distributed across the skis. It would also limit your skiing if tipping the ski was the only method (or element) of steering control you employed.

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When you cross over the skis your COM is moving away from the point where your skis contact the snow. At high edge angles if you do nothing you will just slide headfirst down the slope, your feet and skis will never catch up.

Extending one or both legs just after crossover will put the skis into reverse camber on the new edges and start carving into the fall line.

It feels counter-intuitive at first, you are already out of static balance and you are pushing yourself further out, but it does work.

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Rusty Guy,

are you saying that you never play with differential "weighting" between your two skis in order to alter turn shape?

e.g., I tip my skis to carve and normally distribute the forces (outside ski dominant but not 100%). If I want to tighten the turn then I tend to angulate more AND move further towards 100% loading on outside ski (by incrementally flexing inner leg/straightening outside leg).

Have I got this wrong? Is it flawed in some way? Why?

Thanks,

J

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Some great reading on www.youcanski.com

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