BASI Question

A snowHead

has BASI changed the designations it uses for cert levels? i had always heard level/stage III, II, I. the other day in the locker room a new instructor was citing different terminology. can anyone help?

A snowHead

Rusty Guy, it's all on this page:

http://www.basi.org.uk/courses/alp_overv.asp

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Rusty Guy, yes, it's green, blue and black Wink

(if they can't get the students to tip the instructor, they are trying to get them to tip the ski...)

* please note this is a little joke about Rusty looking for a bump lesson

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Rusty Guy, Grade 3,2 and 1. But now at Grade 1 there are 2 levels. ISIA is awarded at Grade 2, and you can be Grade 1 without Eurotest (still ISIA) or continue to the whole thing and become ISTD. this is a fairly recent change. I'm now told (although I don't know for sure), that the Grade 1 technical is the benchmark for europe. this may, of course, be wishful thinking, but the guys passing now are majorly hot skiers, so it may be true.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

There are now 4 Levels:
Grade 3 is now Ski Instructor
Grade 2 is now Ski Teacher ISIA
Grade 1 is now ISTD International Ski Teacher Diploma
BASI Trainer

Test Technique can be done after Ski Instructor, in France, to then qualify for Stagiere
Euro Speed Test can be done at ISIA grade for France Equivilence.

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Spyderman, thank you. Very Happy

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

So will grade 2 and speed test do for autonomous instructing in france?

After all it is free

Back in the day (80's) BASI 3 was your bog standard instructor, BASI 2 was pretty hot and BASI 1 was the monkey's nuts and very few people achieved it.

slikedges,

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Spyderman, is that correct, i thought you needed to be an ISTD to teach "autonomously" in france, unless you were a stagiere???

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I just coped this from a site called http://www.snowsportrecruitment.com/ and they say it is current as of summer 2005
==============
With the highest level BASI qualification (International Ski Teacher Diploma or ISTD) you can basically work anywhere in the world. However even having gained this qualification, if for example you intend to work in France, you need to apply to the French government (Jeunesse et des Sports) for your equivelance certificate and then subsequently for your carte professionnelle.

The second level BASI (Ski Teacher, ISIA) allows you to gain employment in many parts of the world including the West Coast of the USA and Canada. At present you can also work in France as a stagiere (trainee) for a French or International ski school that has “training centre” status. However after this season 2005/06 this will no longer be the case as ALL instructors will have to do the “test technique” which comprises of a timed slalom and a free run. The plus side of this however is that the first level qualified BASI (Ski Instructor) will also be able to work in France as a stagiere if they have passed the “test technique”.
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I can't find any further info on exactly what Ski Teacher ISIA plus the full Euro Speed Test (which is part of the ISTD qualification) allows. I would'nt have thought you would have to do the Test Technique if you have already passed the Euro Test, but I'm not sure. I know you have to register with the authorities before you can teach. Sorry I did'nt read your question fully (too many beers) with regard to the 'Autonomous' bit. A Ski Teacher must work under the authority of a Ski School, whilst a ISTD is free to set up his own ski school or freelance coaching, once registered. This allows for off piste guiding as well, but not alpinism. Sorry to have misled.

is it merely my pea sized brain or is this a tad confusing? prior to posing the question i glanced at the basi website and found it clear as mud. yes this is critical, however the psia situation is just as bad at present. i'm glad i somehow obtained my level III (full) cert years ago. i doubt that at present i could fill out the paperwork or wade thru the required website.

You know it makes sense.

Hopefully this will clarify some of the comments above;

Grade 3 + test technique allows employment in france as a stagiere.

Eurotest is a higher qualification than test technique so if you have eurotest you do not need to do test technique.

Grade 2 ISIA + test technique is required from sept 2006 for employment as stagiere in france. A slightly higher rate of pay than grade 3 + test technique.

Grade 2 ISIA + Eurotest gives a slightly hogher rate of pay.

Grade 2 ISIA + Eurotest does NOT allow self employment i.e 'Autonomous' . Untill grade 1 ISTD is achieved you must still be employed by a ski school.

A ski school, which may be French, British or other nationality, must be registered and approved by the jeunesse de je sport.

Probably still as clear as mud but hopefully will help.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

stewart woodward,

Well put, even I understand now.
I'm sure it will all change again before long, when the French move the goalposts again.

A snowHead

stewart woodward, thanks for that but does it mean that a brit with a grade 2 ISIA after passing the Eurotest can work at any old ski school, my understanding was only a few schools with some sort of "teaching centre status" can allow non ISTD's to work in france and for only a limited time.

Spyderman, do you work in france?

A snowHead

skimottaret, I am in Morzine and have my 3 and have been looking into all the above as well. For an ESF or British Ski School to employ people on a stagiare basis they have to be a recognised training establishment. As far as I am aware they also to have a certain number of fully qualified i.e. ISTD before they can employ stagiares and the number of stagiares allowed is the in proportion to the number of fully qualifieds. Hope that all makes sense!!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

snowandtrek, that was my understanding that only a handful of schools can take on stagieres and there are very limted spaces.

have you gone for the test technique? im out doing my 3 in march in courcheval and would be interested to hear how tough the tests are.....

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skimottaret,

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Spyderman, thanks for that, i may have a go at some gates this spring to see how i get on....

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Spyderman, It's not the French moving the goalposts at all - it's the european parliament nowadays!

Test Technique should not be too hard for any decent pro level skier with a bit of serious training. I reckon that even with my advanced years I could pass it now.

uktrailmonster, "Back in the day (80's) BASI 3 was your bog standard instructor, BASI 2 was pretty hot and BASI 1 was the monkey's nuts and very few people achieved it."

Pass rate has never been much more than 25% in a good year. I remember once nearly 50% passed, and everyone thought it was a stitch-up! (It wasn't, they just had a lot of very good candidates). Grade 1 is still the monkey's nuts! Very Happy

After all it is free

Some food for thought, during a BASI trainee instructor course the subject of the Eurotest came up and the middle aged people on the course asked our ISTD instructor trainer how tough the eurotest was and what our chance might be in the years to come.

He was very honest and said he wouldnt pass as is and would need months of preparation and training to stand any chance. Shocked

This came from a very fit and HIGHLY competent skier who had taken and passed the eurotest.

so i am not giving up the day job and am bummed about the fact that instructing in france is most likely never going to happen for me... Crying or Very sad

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skimottaret, don't give up hope - send a PM to stewart woodward who might be able to give you some advice Very Happy

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cathy, hmmmmmmm.... i am resigned that bar work may be easier to come by if you can flash your BASI flocon.....

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skimottaret,
Get your BASI Ski Instructor, do test technique and your sorted, as a Stagiere.

Eurotest is seriously hard, you really need to come from a racing background, probably 75% of the ESF teaching now could'nt pass it. it is designed to limit the number of new Instructors with a legitimate right to work in France, so as to protect the earnings of the existing ESF instructors. It's all about protecting the employment in the mountain regions. Funny how the head of the ESF is best mates with the French Sports Minister, and basically writes french law to suit himself. That's why BASI have taken ESF to the European Court, and won, in order for the right to work as EU citizens. It's certainly not the French welcoming the brits with open arms. After all what the hell has the ability to ski a GS course within 8% of a FIS racer, got to do with being a good Ski Instructor?

You know it makes sense.

easiski,
You say you totally dispute what I'm saying but you say you were in France before the court cases. Are you disputing the reasoning that BASI took for taking the French authorities to the European court, after all they did win.
BASS has taken the French authorities to court 3 times and won.
Seems to me that the Eurotest was introduced to disadvantage Istructors from nations without a racing background, as a lot kids from alpine areas ski race when they are school.
BASI have always had comparable standards, which were always accepted anywhere apart from France. How else would they have won their cases in the European Court?
Yes, BASI has raised the standards thoughout their qualifications, which will now hopefully stop further disputes from other nations, by taking away any excuse. BASI standards are probably now higher than theirs.
I still can't see how you agree that the ability to ski a GS course at race speed has anything to do with being a good Instructor. I know that it is putting perfectly good teachers in hospital through trying.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Spyderman,

A snowHead

CEM, Spyderman, you're definitely not alone in that one!

A snowHead

Wear The Fox Hat, CEM,

Glad to see it's not just me.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I know of an instructor who likes to go into a hire shop at least once a year, and rent the basic beginner skis/boots, then go out and ski. It gives her a better understanding of what the first time students have to work with.

If one of the key parts of becoming an instructor is being able to race down a prepared piste with the proper equipment, what relevance does that have to being able to get a beginner on the slopes and having fun?

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Eurotest is basically just willy waving (not sure what the female equivalent would be!). Does it have any relevance in everyday ski instructing? I very much doubt it.
Do driving instructors have to race around a circuit within 8% of a Formula 1 driver? No, I don't think so.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

uktrailmonster, DON'T GO THERE!!!!

We've already done that one to death several times.

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I was very much of the opinion that ski instructing has a very large component of being able to effectively demonstrate and that the Eurotest is a good yardstick to determine competence. But, after having started teaching beginners on a dry slope i have softened my position somewhat. Teaching beginners doesnt require a racing pedigree and grade 3's are more than competent to teach the central theme up to parallel standard.

I think that the French have it right, the stagieres can teach up to a certain level and the ISTD's can teach any level.

The real problem from my perspective is that the reality is there are very limited number of opportunities for non French to work as Stagieres in france and i have staretd another thread on this subject. The root of protectionism is the french authorities making it difficult for non frecnh ski shools to achieve teaching centre status. How many British stagieres are working outside the ESF ???

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uktrailmonster,

Did I not tell you I taught the Stig how to drive. wink

After all it is free

V.interesting discussion guys - as someone who is currently training for the Eurotest I enjoyed reading this debate.

I must confess before starting on the journey I completely agreed with the view that it wouldn't make a better instructor and what's the benefit?

Now, after a couple of race camps and starting to see a technical improvement in my skiing (non-race background) I must agree with Easiski etc that it is shaping up British instructors to match anyone other countries instructors can offer.

Quite simply, (I think) GS racing helps instructors to really understand how best to stand-on skis and how to use their edges properly - fairly fundamental, but amazing how many instructors (including me) need to get in tune with really skiing properly.

As a side benefit you also fast track learning on ski fitness training, hydration/diet, ways of overcoming fear, proper warm-up/cool-down process, ski preparation (which some instructors havn't a clue about!) etc - all of which, I think will be very useful information to be able to discuss with future clients - all-be-it maybe toned down a bit.

Sorry for the ramble, but I thought it may be interesting to pass on a bit of insight from someone who's in the Euro test process - and yes it's v.hard - first test St Christoph End April - (maybe Cairngorm early March - fingers crossed re. snow). Very Happy

dg3, can i ask how old you are? have you been teaching outside of the Alpine countries? just trying to get a feel to see if it is even remotely possible for me to even think about going for it...

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skimottaret, hi - I'm 36 and must admit fitter than I've ever been before as a result of prep training. I'm still a way off technically and with work comittments it's going to be a slow journey - but it's fun and once you get into racing, v.addictive. Age is a factor but it can be overcome with determination and grit - oldest (I think) to pass the test is 46 and there's a chap who I trained with in Nov who's into his forties and fitter than the twenty somethings who were there.

I've not taught outside the Alpine countries yet - but would like to be able to teach anywhere.

Good luck if you choose to take it on - whaterver happens you'll have fun and improve your skiing to boot (might get in trouble with your other half for buying too much kit though wink

)

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