 Poster: A snowHead
|
All
I'm looking for guiding company recommendations, for Verbier and Val d'Isere.
Am interested in views on:
- safety
- 'quality'
- enjoyment
- levels of advice/tuition when being guided*
- cost
* i.e. whether the guides would point out any obvious/important weaknesses/issues, or just leave you to flounder down regardless.
My ski-buddy's a 'good intermediate' (comfortable on blacks, and happy to get stuck into narrow/rocky 'in bounds' routes) - and I'll get my board down most things but with inverse style/gradient ratio... I've only done 1 guided run, the Valle Blanche.
I'm guessing that a lot of the opinion will be driven by the individual guides, but any pointers on the culture of the organisation would be appreciated...
(oh, Verbier will be 2nd week Jan, and Val 2nd week Feb)
TIA,
h.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
in Val, you would do very well I'd expect with "Alpine Experience". "Top ski" are also very good. If you explain to both that you want some degree of tuition and see what they offer.
Verbs, no idea I'm afraid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
We (2 adults, 2 9yo kids) used Evolution 2 in Tignes a couple of years ago; they also function in Vd'I. We did only very straightforward off piste routes (Tour de Pramcou and Tour de Charvet) I was impressed with their efficiency and their approach, and they came well recommended. It suited us, complete off piste novices, very well; whether they are as good for more experienced skiers I can't say.
Our chap (whose name I can't remember) was confidence inspiring and took the safety aspects of the thing seriously, although the conditions were very safe. He didn't have to teach us a lot because the conditions were not that diffeent to piste, as it hadn't snowed for ages, and we coped pretty well.
I'd use them again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I use Evolution2 on my third ever ski trip many moons ago. They also took me down the Tour de Carvet, but in deepish snow and on 2m long, straight, skinny skis.
I can confirm that they are also very patient!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Cannot recommend Alpine Experience enough for Val d'Isere and the Tarentaise in general
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I've used Adrenaline in Verbier. They were very professional and very safe but not really concerned with the instruction side of things, although I should point out they also do off-piste instruction.
I would make it clear to them in advance that one of you snowboards and the other is a skier. Some guiding bureaux get funny about this but it will also affect route selection. Vallon d'Arby (for which you don't really need a guide - it is avalanche controlled) has a lengthy hike out at the bottom for a boarder, although that shouldn't put you off. Some of the routes off Mont Fort, for which you definitely need a guide (steep, slide prone, glaciated depending on where you go) have an exposed traverse in and a hike out round the lake to the barrage and are hence harder work for a boarder than a skier.
Best of luck.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
For Val d'Isere I agree with David Murdoch, most of the Alpine Experience ( www.alpineexperience.com ) guides are great though I've not done lessons with them. The guides speak English to each other (Most are Australian or British etc and the others speak Englih well. They started as a more democratically organised break-away from Top Ski.
Top Ski ( www.topskival.com ) were voted the World's best Ski School a few years back (though they are mostly off-piste, like Alpine Experience). They have a more French and international based clientel and more clients are expert skiers, so very good skiers will be more challenged with them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Giles, not convinced that Vallon d'Arbi is avalanche controlled in the true sense - it is a marked itinerary route which can be closed for safety reasons but it certainly isn't blasted. There were a couple if incidents down there last season IIRC, one of which involved a Maison du Sport instructor getting injured. Same goes for all the other itinerary routes. hamilton, depending on budget best of both worlds would be to get an instructor to go with you and also hire a guide from the Bureaux des Guides. Just make sure you get an instructor good enough to give you some pointers on off piste skiing. Suppose it all depends on how good you and your mate are, since there is a world of difference between being comfortable on black runs and skiing some of the stuff off the back side of Mont Fort. Any good guide (and most of them are in Verbier) will assess how good you are before taking you into any challenging terrain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
In last few years i have used Evo2 for guiding around Espace Killy. They always managed to find fresh snow and took safety very seriously. There was not much teaching as the groups were pretty competent but advice was always forthcoming (when it was required/requested). They do run off-piste courses but the quality of tuition depends on the individual guides/instructors and I have heard mixed reviews, as is true with ALL schools.
Giles makes a good point about mixing skiers and boarders on offpiste adventures. The key issue is route selection with boarders not coping with long traverses and flat run-outs as well as skiers. Consequently skiers are not keen to have boarders with them as you tend to wait for them to catch up. Having said that if all in your group don’t mind that should not be a problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
BGA, Fair point - I was told it was controlled but if I'm wrong there, that's a pretty serious mistake and I'm happy to take correction on that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
In the resorts I know itineraries are avalanche controlled. Sounds a recipe for disaster if it is different in different places.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Not sure about other resorts but the itinerary routes of Vallon d'Arbi, Tortin, Col de Gentianes and Col des Mines in Verbier are not avalanche controlled. As itinerary routes, unlike true backcountry off-piste, they are officially opened or closed at the discretion of Televerbier and when open they are patrolled (ie they will come and get you if you need help) BUT they are not blasted or groomed. To me avalanche controlled means the slopes are groomed, blasted and considered to be safe to ski without a transcevier, probe, shovel and so on. Anyone contemplating skiing these routes without that equipment is mad. Vallon d'Arbi in particular is very avalanche prone, locally some of the instructors I know nickname it Vallon d'Avalanche. That said it is a beautiful run and safe when skiied in the right conditions with a guide. I'd always ask the local guide bureaux what the situation is in the particular resort you are skiing in to be sure
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
BGA, Fair enough, that's a serious mistake on my part. Apologies folks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| BGA wrote: |
| As itinerary routes, unlike true backcountry off-piste, they are officially opened or closed at the discretion of Televerbier and when open they are patrolled (ie they will come and get you if you need help) BUT they are not blasted or groomed. |
How can you "open" a run. or patrol it, if it is not considered avalanche safe? Doesn't make sense to me.Surely when it is open it must have been, at the least, inspected and considered by the authorities to be safe. Otherwise the resort would be opening themselves to enormous damages if someone were hurt or killed by avalanche.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
At the risk of pouring oil onto murky waters, it seems to me to be _similar_ to the difference in Canada between 'off-piste' and 'outside the boundary'. If you're 'off-piste' but within boundaries, you can reasonably expect to get rescued if it all goes wrong. Ditto with an itinerary...
Additionally, areas within the boundary, or an 'itinerary', may at times be marked as 'closed' - transgression is considered foolish, and breach of a mountain users contract....
Seems to me, the 'itinerary' is simply a part of the mountain that is 'within bounds', but at times can be closed... The main difference being that as it is not a 'piste', you don't have the same safeguards in terms of risk reduction (e.g. anything from removal of natural hazards through to avalanche control).
So long as this is made clear to the users, then they can take that responsibility/risk.
From my (albeit fairly limited) experience in North America, the risk of avalanche is clearly indicated on the 'off-piste' areas, and riders choose to venture off at their own risk.
For example, at Banff's Sunshine, the Delerium Dive bowl/coulouir section has marked access points, at which there are usually checks to ensure parties entering are suitably equipped.
The key differentiator is thus the level of awareness of the users and, vicariously, the 'reasonable efforts' that the mountain authorities have made to ensure someone venturing onto one of those itineraries is aware of that risk. Given the negative comments in 'Where to Ski' about the piste labelling/maps, I'll be interested to see how well those 'reasonable efforts' have turned out.
(oh, and I'm an auditor by profession, so I have something of a vested interest in risk assessment and liability.....)
apologies for stirring up one of those perennial arguments
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
All this conjecture further reinforces why people should have a game plan and not just blithly stumble under the ropes etc.
Go with some kit and a good idea of what to do, should you have an accident. Looking for someone else to help you out means you probably shouldn't go there.
Never assume these things are 'safe' and you can always ask at the lift station if in doubt. Sometimes you will see fresh tracks and sometimes the info is out af date, its your call.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
snowball, in the case of the runs in Verbier there is a gate at the entry point. If it says closed then there is nothing to stop you skiing it, it's just that Televerbier won't come and dig you out if there is a problem - possibly because they don't feel that they should expose their staff to the dangers involved in a rescue. There are however plenty of people who will ski it, and I don't have a problem with this as long as they know what they are doing and have appropriate equipment. If the gates are open then Televerbier are not saying it's safe, just that there is the potential for rescue if required. There are disclaimers on the piste map and on the signs that there is no grooming or avalanche control, and that it should only be attempted by experts so they are not really opening themselves to legal action - as hamilton says they have taken reasonable steps to let people know that there is danger (from avalanche, rocks, trees etc.). My personal rule is that I won't ski any itinerary or off-piste run unless I have first skiied it with either a guide or instructor that I trust. Once I've done that I'll generally be happy to ski it again, subject to conditions but only with the right kit and also with someone else who has the right kit and can dig me out!
hamilton, I've never snowboarded but FYI if you do Vallon d'Arbi or Col des Mines the traverse in is fairly interesting on a pair of fat skis so I would think it would be even more interesting on a snowboard! The bit underneath the ice fall in particular gets the heart rate up a bit
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
snowball, Tortin isn't currently classed as a piste, it's classed as an itinerary. Having said that it's so heavily skiied that it's effectively groomed within half a day of fresh snow falling and just turns into a big mogul field. The only problem early season are the large number of rocks poking through that you can't see until you are on top of them. 
I'm sure you'll be fine in 33 days time. If you've got a guide and are skiing that area then ask him to take you into the Col de Mouche (just continue the traverse over the next ridge from Tortin). There's hardly ever anyone there, the snow's generally better and the terrain is great. Slightly more prone to slipping but if you have a guide you should be fine. If you see a tall muscular skier putting in rhythmical GS turns down there then I'll be the slightly more corpulent individual behind him struggling to keep up
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I remember the Col de Mouche - I think that was the site of the fatal avalanche involving a ski club of GB Rep, wasn't it?
We are employing Zeb Roche again who we did the Dolomites with last season. I originally met him at Verbier when he did a season there - he found us good snow when I thought there was none left.
(I like your last sentence - very nice build up and deflation  )
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Unfortunately planned summer gym work for me to be the tall muscular one didn't pan out 
Didn't know about the SCGB rep. Wouldn't surprise me though, there was a very big slide in there last March, we skiied it three days later and the debris at the bottom must have been about 30ft high. One of the problems is that there are two entries into the bowl, one high, one low. If there is a group skiing from the top I would imagine that it would be easy to avalanche anyone entering from below.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
hamilton, I just returned from a course last week and one of the instuctors does off piste guiding and is a qualified ski and board instructor based in Val
Check out www.blairaitken.co.uk He is resort manager for New Generation ski school
Blair was a 6 times Scottish National team member and was a fantastic teacher during my course. If you contact him please mention my name scott (the American guy on the BASI course in Courcheval)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
(which is fair enough, as I'm usually the one digging her out of the powder).
