 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've been in a group of 6 adults and unable to hear a word the instructor said when I was at the back. So yes, from personal experience a large group is highly detrimental to progress
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In the best group lesson I have had the instroctor only spokke whilst we aere all stood still. He would discuss. demonstrate and then watch, and then discuss. He even had us analysing each other.
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brian
brian
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Ray Zorro, you let yourself down by only telling us twice in the paragraph it was your own experience. I mean how are we supposed to know it's your experience based on such flimsy evidence. You might consider rewriting it thus:
"OK, maybe not all kids, but it was certainly my experience (or the experience of 2 of my daughters ). I wouldn't do it the way I experienced it again, even though it was theoretically a good ski school to experience. They learned precious little during the experience that week and one experienced being almost completely put off lessons (and skiing) and it was only the experience of a promise of no lessons the following year that meant she would experience going at all. "
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ray Zorro, it's a bit like Chinese whispers!!
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| In the best group lesson I have had the instroctor only spokke whilst we aere all stood still. He would discuss. demonstrate and then watch, and then discuss. He even had us analysing each other. |
Excellent. What instructor and from where?
Was this a justification for a hike of £400 per family in lesson costs?
Or was it just that you lucked out on a particularly good instructor or were recommended?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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professorpool, since you've already paid your money and taken your choice, then I think you were just looking for corroboration that you chose right. We can't tell you that - only you will know that after the event - we can only give you generalisations based on our own experiences. You'll just have to suck it and see, won't you? You may be lucky and get one of the excellent ESF instructors for your kids in a group of no more than 6. It happens. Or you may not - in which case you might just come back to this thread and read it with fresh eyes.
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brian
brian
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| professorpool wrote: |
I still see no justification for a hike of £400 based on 4 people.
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Limited supply, plenty of demand. Welcome to capitalism.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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professorpool, It was at the Snowheads EoSB 2006.
Easiski, who took umbrage earlier in the thread had brought along another instructor from Le Deux Alpes due to the demand for her lessons. Her co instuctor was a chap named Euan (british) from the ESI St Christophe in L2A. Initially I was dissapointed not to be given the chance of some lessons with Easiski, but after 10 minutes with Euan all was well. There were 5 in our group and the lessons were cheap as chips. Not all British instructors come at a premium.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| brian wrote: |
| professorpool wrote: |
I still see no justification for a hike of £400 based on 4 people.
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Limited supply, plenty of demand. Welcome to capitalism. |
 Fairysnough!
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Frosty the Snowman, And he will be back next year too, with even more enthusiasm. He also now has his own computer and BB in his new apartment .... He might even dare to get onto Snowheads, but would be equally distressed to be labelled charlatans and useless as I am. 
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You know it makes sense.
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I may have only posted on here for a week or so but I am in fact a professional IT consultant and web developer of around 15 years.
Built my first website in '96.
:shudder:
Mind, I charge a hell of a lot more than my foreign counterparts too - so maybe I'm a hypocrite 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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professorpool, I don’t think I have missed the point of the thread as you are talking about being ripped off, but you were making that judgement purely on the least basic cost.
I work in the building industry and while it doesn’t always work out that way, when dealing with competitive tenders from contractors, the cheapest is very rarely the best in terms of end quality and ultimate customer satisfaction.
You have based your decision purely on the cheapest, I am just saying that may not be the best value. And there is a great deal of difference between cost and value. There was very little value in the lessons that I arranged for my kids, they taught them practically nothing, were very expensive and actually put one off skiing.
I was checking your figures...
You may not have noticed that your 5-year-old gets a free local area lift pass, so if ESF are charging you for one, then it is them that are ripping you off  .
with BASS
Lessons, £95 + 3 x £110 = £425
Lift passes €138 + 2 x €104 = €346 (/ 1.45) = £238
Total = £663
with ESF
Lessons + passes = 3 x €149 + €195 = €642 (/ 1.45) = £442
So the cost difference is £220 or 50%.
The only measure is what you get for your money, is BASS worth the 50% extra cost over ESF. In some ways you will never know as you will never be able to compare directly unless you had identical twins and put one with each. If it were me, I would get opinions on the schools in question before making the final choice, but on the face of it I would have thought that the advantages of BASS with an English instructor and smaller classes would make that extra cost worth it.
That said, I do sincerely hope that it works for you and bearing in mind that you have only been around for a week, you are a great addition to the site 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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professorpool, Perhaps you'd like to do my website for the price of the ESF lessons???
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ray Zorro, Good Maths but for ME the question would be ' How much less would BASS have to charge for me - than any other school -to go with them ?'... you have assumed they are better quality , IMHO they are not based upon my experiences. We are lucky here as there loads of personal commendations (for good or bad) to assist our judgement.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| Ray Zorro, Good Maths but for ME the question would be ' How much less would BASS have to charge for me - than any other school -to go with them ?'... you have assumed they are better quality , IMHO they are not based upon my experiences. We are lucky here as there loads of personal commendations (for good or bad) to assist our judgement. |
Personal recommendations speak volumes, that is why I said
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| If it were me, I would get opinions on the schools in question before making the final choice |
I would assume that BASS would be better (for the factors I mentioned), but I haven't researched them in detail, and I don't recall hearing many positive endorsements about them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Further, if the Brit school system is so outstandingly good, where are all their outputs in the form of Gold Medalists and World Champions? (And I mean proper ones, not someone who came top for a madeup championship in the backend of nowhere).
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hmm... that seems to have shut everyone up
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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apologies. i was looking at the wrong page....
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enaikay78, Don't worry ... Ray and I can type quite fast ! Thanks for apologising .. most wouldn't!
Ray Zorro, ... and if you do , ask me !!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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enaikay78,
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hmm... that seems to have shut everyone up
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Please, don't start with this one......... 
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ski, I agree - and I totally fail to see why it's relevant. Since the original poster was being a nasty troll I fail to see why we should justify the teaching/skiing argument AGAIN.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| easiski wrote: |
| professorpool, Perhaps you'd like to do my website for the price of the ESF lessons??? |
Too busy to buld websites - getting excited about skiing
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 13-12-06 21:54; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| easiski wrote: |
| ski, I agree - and I totally fail to see why it's relevant. Since the original poster was being a nasty troll I fail to see why we should justify the teaching/skiing argument AGAIN. |
Yes. I thougt I would join this board with the sole intention of annoying everyone within 45 posts.
Or.
I was looking for some answers.
Or.
I was looking to confirm my general point, and that made by others also, relating to "ripoff britain" (to quote another poster) is alive and well and exists in the world of skiing too.
You decide.
What has also been said is that how poorly piad and under what dreadul conditions ski instructors and other holiday staff work under.
Further evidence then of rip off.
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Lack of snow on the national mountains may have something to do with it. Mrs RH used to race in Norway, she was lucky her hill was only 1Km away. Kids go skiing after school there and have a lot more practice than someone from Milton Keynes! Even the lucky guys and girls that spend the season in a resort may not make it because of the number factor.
Back to the point, professorpool, if your kids will benefit from a smaller class go for the BSS option if they want to meet more people in a class situation join ESF.
Have fun.
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You know it makes sense.
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professorpool, I think you'll find that Charlotte was having a go at the person who made the quoted assertion not you.
Your own claim was only made about 1 ski school not ALL British instructors so to use it as an example of 'Rip Off' Britain would be an over-generalisation - you obviously haven't checked out easiski's own prices as then you would see a high degree of comparability with other 'locals' , she has to do this as she teaches FRENCH folks too !
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FWIW, these are my kids opinions.
ESF they are OK, but sometimes they didn't have a lot of fun, as the instructor was very serious (a knob was how one of therm described him, they are now 16 and 1 . They have had fun , and good instruction though ('Old Ginola' in Belle Plagne). The ski test thing was just one more problem, as it was a pass or fail then.
British instructors explain things better, and correct their faults, rather than just 'follow me'.
........and just for the record, my opinions.
ESF is not good value if they do not want to go and you can't go to ski school either because of it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry to pitch in late here - I've only just got back online.
Notwithstanding the pros on cons of the teaching systems, I can at least help with some economics.
ESF is run as both a union and a cooperative. Each of the instructors is self-employed and is paid per person in their class - which means that more experienced instructors will often pull rank to have the larger classes. They pay around 20% (sorry, I did know the actual percentage locally, but was told in a genepe induced haze...) of their income to the local chapter of ESF. ESF then shares it's profits, after expenses, with all of the members of the local chapter of ESF based on proportion to number of years service. The national power of ESF, as a "union", means that local ESF schools have fairly low costs - the ski domains are obliged to provide facilities and season tickets to ESF at very good prices (much better than they provide anyone else) and ESF uses its national buying power to buy uniforms, etc at very good prices.
A maximum class size for ESF in Les Gets and Morzine is 12.
So, for your adult ESF deal in Les Gets, if you strip out a nominal 100€ out for the lift pass then 855€ is being made out of the class - with around 680€ going to the instructor and 175€ going to ESF.
As far as I can work out, BASS instructors get around 60% of what is taken - although they are paid by the hour, not by class size.
The maximum class size for BASS varies, but is 4 for young kids, 8 for older kids and 6 for adult group lessons.
The BASS adult lesson will be generating £660 (950€ say) - with around 570€ going to the instructor and 380€ going to BASS. BASS will have significantly higher costs than ESF as they have to rent premises on a commercial basis, pay significantly more for each of their lift passes and buy uniforms (albeit at a 50% discount because of BASI) more commercially as well.
And before anyone gets excited at an instructor earning, say, 570€ for six half days then do the maths for a maximum five month season; not working every day and not being fully utilised every single day.
It's your judgement as to whether this constitutes a rip-off - but do remember that whilst British ski schools had to, and often still have to, fight to be allowed to teach.
ESF has a monopoly right to operate in any ski domain in France. Anyone remembering the bad old days of BT will understand that having a monopoly right to anything always gives you some financial advantages over your competitors.
Three footnotes:
- I'm pretty sure that all of the BASS instructors this year are BASI 1s
- it's interesting to note that this year ESF Morzine are copying the BASS format in an attempt to improve their appeal to the British market - they are actively recruiting native English speaking, BASI qualified instructors and running classes with a maximum class size of six - the prices are pitched the same as those of BASS
- professorpool - whatever you choose, have a great holiday.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PhillipStanton, enlightening post.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski,
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but would be equally distressed to be labelled charlatans and useless as I am.
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Wot yer trying to say, like?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| professorpool wrote: |
I may have only posted on here for a week or so but I am in fact a professional IT consultant and web developer of around 15 years.
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Stick in at school son and you may do well in life. Perhaps even university.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
A maximum class size for ESF in Les Gets and Morzine is 12.
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That's the same size as quoted in the brochures in most resorts, I think, but you do see bigger classes of kids on the mountain in holiday times, whatever the brochure says. Philip Stanton's explanation of the way ESF works is fascinating, and explains a lot of things.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| AxsMan wrote: |
| professorpool wrote: |
| Further, if the Brit school system is so outstandingly good, where are all their outputs in the form of Gold Medalists and World Champions? (And I mean proper ones, not someone who came top for a madeup championship in the backend of nowhere). |
As marc gledhill observed, the succes or lack of it among British ski racers has no relevance to the quality, competency or value for money offered by British ski instructors to holidaymakers. |
Just to comment on this.
To understand the limited success of the British at skiing all you have to do is stand on the slopes in Morzine or Les Gets on a weekend. You'll see hoardes of kids out skiing - some with their parents - but many with local ski clubs. At the age of 8 or 9, kids will be racing. On Wednesday afternoons all of the local schools take to the slopes.
You only have to have a look at Martin Bell's biography to understand how this works:
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Started skiing aged 6 with Karl Fuchs’ Struan House Ski School, Cairngorm, Scotland.
Began ski-racing aged 8 with White Hare Ski Club and Scottish Ski Club, later with Kandahar Ski Club. |
If you really want to understand the differences between the French and British systems, though, I think you need to consider teaching in the context of this early learning.
There's nothing wrong with the French system - it's just that your instructor is likely to be someone who has been skiing since they were 6; can't remember having learned to ski and can't empathise with people who can't ski. Just as I can't empathise with people who can't ride a bike. (Ok, generalisation there - but I'd argue it's largely valid.)
Equally, the French system is heavily biased towards teaching children - as that is when the majority of regular French skiers learn. Children learn differently than adults - in general they tend to be more heavily biased towards learning visually, through imitation.
As you get older you're more likely to learn through trying to understand - i.e. you seek explanations about why stuff happens - or want to relate to physical sensations. And it's at this point that language becomes more of a barrier - especially as you get better. "Imagine there's a pea under the ball of your foot" loses something in translation...
If you're British you're as likely to be learning to ski at 20 or 30 as you are at 6 or 10. And your instructor may have learned very young (especially if they're Scottish), but is as likely to have learned in their 20s. And they'll be teaching using a teaching system that specifically recognises the difference in learning styles between different ages and people.
Is BASI better or worse than the French system. Personally, I think it depends on when you learn...
Edit: fixed some formatting
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| professorpool wrote: |
I may have only posted on here for a week or so but I am in fact a professional IT consultant and web developer of around 15 years.
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Stick in at school son and you may do well in life. Perhaps even university. |
I fail to see your point.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
professorpool, I think you'll find that Charlotte was having a go at the person who made the quoted assertion not you.
Your own claim was only made about 1 ski school not ALL British instructors so to use it as an example of 'Rip Off' Britain would be an over-generalisation - you obviously haven't checked out easiski's own prices as then you would see a high degree of comparability with other 'locals' , she has to do this as she teaches FRENCH folks too ! |
Do the ESF and BSS operate different pricing policies in different resorts then?
Are chalets/apartments/holidays advertised in English mags not more expensive than that which can be sourced direct?
British people going to stay in british owned chalets staffed by British people and taught by British instructors?
Smacks of Algarvism - The sort of people that pack out those bars you see along the sea front there showing Man Utd games on a saturday afternoon serving fish and chips.
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| professorpool wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| professorpool wrote: |
I may have only posted on here for a week or so but I am in fact a professional IT consultant and web developer of around 15 years.
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Stick in at school son and you may do well in life. Perhaps even university. |
I fail to see your point. |
In time you'll find that FtS's point is typically humorous.
But this time I reckon he's just jealous that you've acheived so much before your 16th birthday
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