 Poster: A snowHead
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Don't worry, not another which is the better ski destination thread!
Just a query, as I'm in the process of putting together a nice little trip to Whistler in December, but how do the different piste gradings compare/align.
Is a N. American green a European green or a European blue? Are the blues Euro blues or reds? How do the blacks work? Are the single diamonds like reds, or easy blacks, or in between? I think know that double black diamond runs are hairy...
Feel free to throw in bits and bobs about Whistler too!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was wondering this when looking at a piste map for Mammoth in California - are the gradings in the US and Canada the same?
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roga, they are, but relative to the same resort/area. So, the most difficult terrain on any map will be black diamond. "Experts only" will be double black diamond. "Easiest" is green circle, "more difficult" is blue square. However, the black at Snowbird or Jackson Hole is more difficult than at Boyne Mountain Michigan... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd just play it by ear really... I came across a girl a couple of seasons ago sitting on the snow and wailing in Lake Louise crying "it's not like the blues in austria".
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I'd say greens in Canada are like greens/easy blue in Europe, blues in Canada range from blue to easy reds, single black diamonds are hard reds/easy blacks - double black diamonds, I don't go there! But I think can be harder than your standard European black.
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Lol the blues in Whistler can be "dark blue", and certainly not like the gentle blues in Vail!!
skisimon, have PM'd you re the CSIA courses in Whistler, when are you thinking of heading out, and for how long?
There are plenty of fellow snowHeads out there to have a meet, ski & drink with!
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cathy, from my single Whistler trip I'd agree with that, though Whistler may be graded a bit tougher than the average: the hardest double black diamonds are plenty hard. But it depends which European resorts you compare with - they vary so much. The easiest Kitzbuhel black can be easier than the hardest Val d'Isere blue.
If anyone in your party likes steep off-piste then they absolutely have to try a day or two with Extremely Canadian. Very, very good. You will be challenged.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You can't generalise, as resorts Europe and N.America seem to have to provide the full range of grades whatever the runs are like. I think the difference is most noticeable at the top end; every resort in N.America has to have a couple of double blacks even it it's flat as a pancake. I think one is less likely to be surprised in N.America; none of this pootling down a green to find that it narrows and rears up (down?) to about 75 degs (I exaggerate).
I'd agree with [b]cathy[/b's assessment of where I've been in Canada (Banff, LL, Panorama and Jasper), but I've been surprised by the odd single black.
I understand that Val d'Isere grades it's runs according to average gradient, which seems particularly unhelpful.
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skisimon, I think you also need to add snow conditions into the equation. If it's hard and icy then I wouldn't go anywhere near the double black diamonds in Whistler but I was able to try some of them last season because there was plenty of soft snow.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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PS 7 weeks today!!!! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thanks for the info guys, so it sounds fairly similar to what I thought.
veeeight, thank you, I'll probably reply between the rugby and cricket tonight!
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Yes, as SSH mentioned, the colour coding is relative to each particular mountain or resort i.e. the easieast runs on that mountain are greens & the hardest are the blacks or double black diamonds. So, a blue with black diamond at Mammoth for example, can't really be compared to another mountain - though broadly speaking I'm sure there aren't many huge differences. Erm, hope that's clear!
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You know it makes sense.
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snowball,
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cathy, from my single Whistler trip I'd agree with that, though Whistler may be graded a bit tougher than the average: the hardest double black diamonds are plenty hard. But it depends which European resorts you compare with - they vary so much. The easiest Kitzbuhel black can be easier than the hardest Val d'Isere blue.
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Which Kitzbuehel black is easier than which Val d'Isere slope?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ps Until I tried Val d'Isere I had never heard of a green run - why have a run you have to skate/walk along?
pps You might have guessed I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool Val-man!! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Another issue you may care to factor in, as regards Whistler, is that very little of the single black diamond and none of the double black diamond terrain is groomed (pisted).On Whistler the only single blacks that get any grooming (in my experience) are Raven and Dave Murray (which they use for racing/training). None of the Blackcomb blacks/double blacks are groomed (I think....no doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong).
They only groom some of the blues as well, so dont expect a blue run to be perfect corduroy.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is this about right Europe on the left and US on right. If Grey = single black diamond.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes and no. I think the US and Canada will leave as marked black/double black pistes/trails things which would be iteneraires in Europe, and the North American black/double black pistes are often areas rather than runs, so I think the grey should go down further, and the North American black go a little bit further lower than the European one. A personal view which many will disagree with.
But I suspect there is more differnece between resorts than between continents.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
But I suspect there is more differnece between resorts than between continents. |
B I N G O
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
| Which Kitzbuehel black is easier than which Val d'Isere slope? |
I think the one I was thinking of was at Pass TRhurn. There was a very easy red one side of the lift and an almost identical black on the other. I remember watching two Kamikaze beginners taking it straight.
On the other hand in Val d'Isere the last section of the blue to La Daille is more like a black.
the stoat's brother got it right.
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Thanks for the info on gradings in north America - looks like you have to suss out the individual mountain and it's relative difficulty before working out how difficult blacks and double blacks are - sounds kinda interesting!
Anyone know Mammoth?
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Roga, I was at Mammoth in April - fire away with questions.....
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Hi Brightside, I'm just wondering about the number and general quallity of runs out there - I have a trail map but US and Canadian resorts always look so much less extensive than European ones, not sure if that's really the case though so what was your impression - is there enough to keep a decent skiier amused for a week? Also related to the above discussion, how do the gradings compare to what we have in Europe? I get the impression there are a number of double diamond blacks at the top of the hill so I was presuming some really challenging runs but now I'm wondering if they are that challenging and perhaps just difficult in comparison to the other runs on the hill, what's your take on that and how would you describe the challenge of the hill generally?
While I'm at it, and sorry this is straying off topic, where in your opinion is a good place to stay? I get the impression that the village is all condominiums which I'm not interested in, I'm looking for comfortable accomodation for one with easy access to the slopes and some decent nightlife (nothing big but a nice friendly bar or two would be good).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| roga wrote: |
| Hi Brightside, I'm just wondering about the number and general quallity of runs out there - I have a trail map but US and Canadian resorts always look so much less extensive than European ones, not sure if that's really the case though so what was your impression |
I think that's largely a US vs Europe way of thinking more than anything else. We measure based on km of piste but they go for area in bounds. I suppose it depends on what kind of skiing you favour as to which is best, I'm a beginner off piste so km of piste would be more important to me.
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Hi Roga, all my previous ski trips had been to smaller places before I went to Mammoth but I've no doubt that there will be enough to keep you going for a week - it's only one mountain but it's a really big one!. June mountain, 20 mins up the road, is also on the same ski pass - it's relatively small but a 'must visit' in my opinion as it's such a beautiful wee place & there are never any queues for lifts!
Runs at Mammoth vary from pretty flat around the bottom to totally nuts up the top. Obviously, I don't know your level of skiing ability but if you want a challenge, then you will have plenty of choice at Mammoth. The double blacks off the top - some of them go pretty much straight down for a few metres before 'calming down' to mere 'almost straight down' then generally fan out to the wider bowls that you see on the piste map. A few of the double blacks up top have room for maybe one perfect turn in the right place between rock faces before things get even remotely unscary - the locals don't even do these unless there's been a foot of fresh overnight!
There's a fair bit of variety, some of the stuff on mid mountain is challenging as well but if you like your typical European cruisey Blue type runs then you will be in Heaven.
In my opinion, the hill is fantastic but the town is a bit spread out. There are bars dotted around town but the 'village' or somewhere within a reasonable walking distance of the village is probably your best bet for a bit of decent lively night life. I think there are a few hotels around there if I remember correctly. The village also has a gondola straight up to the ski area. There are free ski buses from all over town which go to all the main ski stations (I would advise going to The Mill or Main Lodge), with the most frequent being the red line - something to bear in mind. I think there is a map on the official web site with the bus lines. The ski areas are a few miles from the town itself so your choices will generally be - take the bus, take a car, stay at the village or stay at Main Lodge hotel (which is miles from anything other than the ski area!)
Any specific questions roga, just ask....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| roga wrote: |
| Hi Brightside, is there enough to keep a decent skiier amused for a week? . |
This is entirely a perception thing. I have heard British punters at relatively small places in global terms e.g. Fernie moaning about being bored because they had "done" all the pistes. Meanwhile locals quite happily spend a lifetime skiing the various nooks and crannies without even going out of bounds and enjoy every minute of it. Enough to keep a decent all mountain skier amused - more or less anywhere in half decent conditions. Enough to keep a "3 Vallees" raised euro piste cruiser happy -maybe not.
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| skisimon wrote: |
| Is a N. American green a European green or a European blue? Are the blues Euro blues or reds? How do the blacks work? Are the single diamonds like reds, or easy blacks, or in between? I think know that double black diamond runs are hairy... |
They have triple blacks too (I can't remember if they have quadruple blacks or not). They just don't advertise them on the usual piste map. You have to buy a little book designed for expert skiers which has things like skull and crossbones, and little ghostie symbols next to the runs where a slip could result in bad injury or worse. 
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You know it makes sense.
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I think I'll give those runs a miss...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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The runs in N American and Europe are marked in different colours. At the moment the main difference is that the runs in N America are white while in Europe they are green (grass). 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Snowy wrote: |
| skisimon wrote: |
| Is a N. American green a European green or a European blue? Are the blues Euro blues or reds? How do the blacks work? Are the single diamonds like reds, or easy blacks, or in between? I think know that double black diamond runs are hairy... |
They have triple blacks too (I can't remember if they have quadruple blacks or not). They just don't advertise them on the usual piste map. You have to buy a little book designed for expert skiers which has things like skull and crossbones, and little ghostie symbols next to the runs where a slip could result in bad injury or worse. |
Well as a matter of fact, in Michigan they actually do have triple diamonds!
http://www.mtbohemia.com/mountain.html#
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Is this book the full chapter & verse on all the interesting parts like Khyber's, Fraggle Rock etc? Doesn't it wee wee the regulars off a bit that any punter can find their way to the goodies? Might get myself a copy to refresh my memory though . Is this the best guide out there?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| fatbob wrote: |
Probably - its amazing how effective google searches are, remember the first rule of fight club. My problem generally is that I don't know the names of pisted runs never mind secret stashes.  Hence if I was to direct someone somewhere they would be -"don't know the name", "thingy", "that steep bit" etc |
When skiing with my friends the runs usually have names like 'the one where Dave stacked', 'that one with the bend in the middle' or my favourite 'dog bar'.
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FAQ
