 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi Guys and Gals,
I was just reading the ‘mk’ thread, which raised the age-old question about standardizing the grade of ski slopes – with the normal conclusions i.e. not practically or commercially viable etc. This got me thinking about how ski resorts could provide skiers with more information regarding ski slopes with varying degrees of difficulty. Personally (being a fairly competent but very cautious skier) I’d like to know if the red run I’m embarking on suddenly turns into a black for a while half-way down – even if it’s only for 20 yards or so.
For what it’s worth (which is most probably not a lot), I’ve come up with a simple way of giving skiers more information about the runs. I don’t think this is already in use anywhere – well, not that I’ve seen anyway. I apologize if someone else has mentioned this before – I promise I haven’t copied your idea – just a case of ‘great (or not so great) minds…’ and all that.
Basically, currently most resorts (that I’ve been to) mark their runs with appropriately coloured signposts – the ones I’ve seen have been coloured circles with the number of the run in the middle. As a lot of runs have varying contour/difficulty profiles, my idea is to print this around the outside of the sign. I’ve drawn a few examples HERE!
If you look at the examples, what we have is the main run colour and it’s number in the middle (as it is at present), and round the outside (starting at the top and working clockwise) we have the contour/difficulty profile. So, for example, we can see that run number 40 is primarily a blue run but in the middle it has a red section, with a little black section a little later, ending in a bit of a red followed by a green to the finish. I would have thought it would be fairly simple to for ski resorts to implement.
I know that the grading will still be subjective (with regards to each resort) and this isn’t a perfect solution by far, but with this method it would at least give the skiers the chance to choose to undertake a run based on its entire graded length, and not just a general benchmark. It could also stop some skiers from getting into trouble or annoying more experienced skiers by skiing runs that are beyond their capabilities.
What do you think? Has anyone else got any similar ideas or seen something along these lines?
Anyway, it’s just a thought. It’s strange the things you think about, on a slow day at work – especially with the skiing season rapidly approaching.
Laters, Colin.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SeeJay, Hmmmmm. I think this might be a runner once it gets going
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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SeeJay,
seems OK if a little over complicated. How would it look after a year or so on the top of a mountain?
I'm not a very good skier but green/blue/red/black tells me roughly what to expect.
I know if ski a red there may be the odd bit that is a bit steep but this is the nature of a red it's not a blue!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting idea - I was in L2A in April and was struck by some 'interesting' grading of runs. There were some that were marked as blues that had sections of steep mogully terrain that was strewn with poor unfortunates who I (presumably beginnners) who'd tried to ski down them. I'm not saying it wasn't fun but part of getting down them was not only skiing the bumps etc but also anticipating terrified snowploughing novices who were apt to fall over at any moment as well as the usual sideslipping all over the shop snowboarders (love 'em). The grading system was clearly misleading numbers of people although I'm not sure how you'd deal with runs that were very easy one moment and the next reasonably steep and mogully. Some of the nearby reds were in my opinion no more difficult than these, some far easier with less bodies strewn around lol 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I rather think that part of the learning process, both the slope indications and also the art (or lack of) skiing/boarding comes from a little of being thrown in at the deep end. So good idea that it may be I am happy with the status quo.
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Its still meaningless without daily updates as to conditions. A freshly groomed black after a recent snowfall could be a doddle for a confident competent skier, a refrozen patchy mogulled blue could be a whole different challenge.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Tomsk, LOL - EXCELLENT IDEA  Scrap my idea - I'm going with this one.
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How about  for crowded with learners and cretins?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SeeJay, Hi Seejay ... I think this is a good idea ... anything more to manage expectations is good and prevent people getting into difficulties.
However, this topic has been debated to death before and there appear to be 2 distinct camps:
1. Present system is fine - just get good enough then it won't be an issue - no system will be perfect
2. Help manage my expectations - I don't like surprises and like to graduate gently - anything that is slightly better is an improvement
Your idea does strike me as significantly simpler than a lot of what has been suggested before. Why not approach a resort(s) with your suggestion? It will soon be seen whether they think it is worthwhile.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SeeJay, I think its a great idea. Problem I foresee would be getting standardised co-operation throughout all resorts, all countries. Sometimes when I have been down a blue and wet myself half way because it got a bit nasty I always think that maybe the powers that be don't give a s**t.
Lateral thought - what about an international committee that together visits all resorts and includes them in an overall scheme. Once the resort is accredited, you will confidently know that red in resort A in France is comparable to the red in member resort B in Austria, and so on.
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Maybe I'm a bit unsympathetic having got to the stage where I don't really think about piste gradings. But isn't pitting yourself against (or running with) nature part of the challenge of skiing? If you want perfectly homogenous slopes go to a snow-dome. Actually, isn't it rumoured that some slopes at Whistler were designed on a computer to ensure a consistent gradient?
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You know it makes sense.
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Arno, spot on, this is a natural environment
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Arno, I thought of that too. When I boarded I felt like that and continually just zipped about a mountain not really caring what I came up against except flat.
As a skier, the principal concern I have at this stage is tackling something beyond my ability. I don't like rude shocks so like to know where I will end up before I get there
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Poster: A snowHead
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I can't think of any red or blue I have found that was wildly not red or blue - a lot of resorts in France seem to use them pretty interchangeably though, but basically they are the same kind of thing I reckon. The majority of holidaymakers probably stick to these and ultimately if it all does get too hairy you can always go down on foot/@rse/face...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| martski wrote: |
| Arno, spot on, this is a natural environment |
How is it more natural than Oxford St?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks very much for all your replies.
Arno, I take you point about skiing/boarding being about the excitement etc. and I’m not for one second suggesting that we change anything about how pistes are set up or groomed to try and make them all standard gradients etc. In fact, my suggestion is required because ski runs are a natural non-uniform environment. If they were all sculpted standardized pistes, there wouldn’t be any need for my suggestion. The only thing I’m suggesting is to provide more information to the skier/boarder.
I’m with Peter on this one – I don’t like surprises. Although I’m a fairly competent skier, unfortunately I’m a very cautious one. I absolutely love skiing but it doesn’t matter how many times I go, I’ve never lost the cautiousness that I had when I was a beginner. My skill keeps improving but I guess I’m just a cautious person by nature – I’m guessing others out there are the same.
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Kaiser, I think you're right - I've been on reddish blues and bluish reds. The only time I've been really caught out is when I was a beginner and on a green slope which, even after I've improved a lot, seems ridiculously graded as green.
I think grading is important for beginners. The attitude of "just get good enough and you won't have to worry" is not helpful when you are struggling to snowplough down something that is really too steep for a snowplough. It was almost enough to put me off skiing for ever, and was recent enough for me remember vividly being a beginner - perhaps something a lot of people here can't remember. Fortunately I persisted and at the end of a two week holiday was skiing parallel down reds without bother. But it was a close thing and of course now I'm a 
I like both the ideas - smileys and the roundels. Anything that is informative, and particularly so at the beginner end, would be helpful. Frankly if, as a beginner, you are daft enough to try a black, then you get what is coming. But you should have confidence that a green is skiable by anybody who can do linked snowplough turns.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Always a tricky one. I'm not sure how resorts do actually clasify their runs - do they take the average gradient of the piste and class accordingty? Also complicated by the States where they appear to have different gradings - from memory double blacks, no greens, etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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docsquid, nicely put  I do think some people have forgotten what it was like to be a beginner.
I always remember skiing a red run in Fernie a few years ago. The top part was all pretty much as I’d have expected as for a red run but then about half-way down the gradient suddenly got VERY steep for about 50 yards. As I stood at the top of the steep part, I could see quite a few people had fallen over at various points on this section. It wasn’t icy or particularly narrow – just very steep. It didn’t really cause me any problems as I’d been skiing for quite a while, but I can remember thinking at the time that it would have definitely caught me out if I’d encountered something like this just after I’d started skiing reds.
I know that falling over and pushing yourself is all part of the learning process – and some people find this part a lot more fun than others – but I do sometimes wonder how many people are put off skiing by things like this.
It’s not even a case of ‘just get good’, some people just haven’t got the fearlessness that other people have got. I’ve got good(ish) but I'm still unable to shake the fear of being confronted with a slope that I’m unsure of. It doesn’t worry me and doesn’t stop me from doing any of the runs I want to, but it’s there. Which is most probably why I can still relate to how scary skiing is for some beginners. Hence the suggestion for more information.
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stephen buck, blues, reds, blacks and double blacks at the resorts I've been to.
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SeeJay, I'm naturally cautious too. I know I could cope with most pistes, but still make Mr Docsquid ski down the blacks first to make sure they are OK. They always are, and I always get down just fine. I was actually a beginner last year (Jan 2005), but have been able to ski five weeks since then, and have improved very rapidly indeed (I'm going on a giant slalom race training course in Tignes for week tomorrow!). I can vividly remember the fear and uncertainty that I experienced, and more information would help to choose appropriate slopes for progression without scaring susceptible types like me out of their wits.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stephen buck, I was told (by a guide) that Val d'Isere grades it's runs by average gradient (as we were going down a 'green' strewn with the carcasses of beginners). It's not very helpful, especially at the green/blue end.
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Nice idea in general Seejay. It's a pity there aren't more grades. I remember, after safely negotiating my first red with an instructor, thinking "That's me ok for reds then." I went out later and did another red on my own which must have been considerably "darker."
Needless to say my skis were mostly reduntant.......
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As the main map reader for our ski holidays I am responsible for ensuring we all ski over terrain we can all do without killing ourselves, frequently we find ourselves on slopes my little sister describes as "dark blue" and if I take her on too many during a day I end up with several of what the frogs describe as "bleues" as well.
However this is down largely to my desire to mix up her (and my) skiing experience rather than any desire to improve her skiing, although perhaps a little sadism comes in to it.
What about pink runs for girls, brown runs for psychos, braille runs for the blind or purple runs for the sexually frustrated?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've got another suggestion - ask somebody at the top
"what's this red run like"
"OK, one steep section towards the bottom but it's wide and the snow's good"
"usually fine but get's a bit crowded this time of day"
"more of a blue than a red" etc etc
You can't really encapsulate an uptodate view of what a piste is like in a simple roundel so if you are nervous -ask!
Of course you could go to an extreme and start writing detailed guidebooks like climbing guides "after opening pitch bears left 100 yards, steepens , two smalll rollers, off-camber right hand turn etc" but because no one bothers with this I have to believe one of the things that people like about skiing is the freedom to just go with the flow... (plus of course route finding is much simpler/carries less severe consequences than when climbing)
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SeeJay -- nice idea, but seems a touch complex for mass-market holidaymakers.
On balance, the best solution available right now is to show a simple colored sign, with average and maximum gradients printed clearly in % terms.
Some stations in North America and Italy already do this. It is time for other resorts to follow their lead and upgrade their aging methods.
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FAQ
Red - It doesn't look that bad till you've gone too far to turn back
Black
for freestylers
avalanche zone
