 Poster: A snowHead
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Having just joined the Ski Club of Great Britain I was intrigued to peruse their specialist holidays brochure which offers a comprehensive range of vacations for skiers of varying standards. It's amazing what you'll find-holidays for ski mountaineering types (purists), intermediates, experts and so forth. However, this got me thinking as to what constitutes these various categories? Many years ago I was fortunate enough to join a group of 'advanced to expert' skiers on a 10 day powder adventure in Val D'Isere, designed specifically for 'very experienced and strong skiers'. It was a truly memorable adventure but the actualite of it all entailed a miscellany of skiers of, well, varying abilities from skidded parallels to the absolutely outstanding (I'd like to claim I was the latter but that would be lying). So, this group of 'advanced to expert' skiers went through the powder in the most curious fashion, from classic '8' signatures to the trademark intermediate 'z' and, when the less experienced had given up, straight running which ended up in some spectacular blow ups! Now my question would be what constitutes the aforementioned categories as each individual clearly interprets (and perhaps exaggerates) their competence in their own way and this can sometimes lead to the situation I have just described. What the heck is an intermediate? Is a skier of 25 weeks experience still an intermediate or have they moved to the advanced category? Your thoughts s.v.p!
By the way, by day 3, most of the skiers who weren't up to it were turfed out, including some Tour Operator 'ski guides'.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In the end I think it's confidence combined with skill, with myself it depends on those plus things like the conditions and the weather, In good conditions and with fine weather I can tackle any pisted slope and many unpisted ones like an expert, if the weather is not so great I become a stumbling intermediate, primarily this is because I weigh too much and in flat light I can no longer see the bumps so my legs and in particular my knees hurt, in fine weather I see all the bumps so can ski over or arround them as I wish, I still learn new techniques and skills and I have over 52 weeks of on slope time
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Those terms are largely subjective, and when combined with some people's tendency to exaggerate their abilities, have very little use. It's much better to describe what you can actually do on skis if you need to let other people know your skiing ability. If someone tells me they are an intermediate skier I ask what kind of turns they like to do when they are having a good day on skis, and what they are like when they are having a bad day on skis.
For example, I have 40+ week's skiing, I'm comfortable skiing down the fall line on any piste using a range of turns from pure scraped to pure carved depending on gradient and other factors. Off-piste I'm confident on moderate slopes and in good snow conditions; on steeper slopes or if the snow is heavy or very cut up I need to proceed with a bit of caution. I struggle to link many turns when skiing bumps, but I think this is more to do with a lack of fitness than a lack of technique. I have no idea whether it makes me an intermediate, advanced, expert or what, but it does give you a pretty good idea of my skiing abilities. In general I find it best to avoid using those terms altogether.
Regards
Rob
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It depends on who you ask.
Ask someone who knows nothing about skiing to pick the expert out of three skiers, they will pick the one they believe is skiing the most stylishly (perhaps)
Ask a beginner, and they will see anyone who skis better than them as "advanced" or "expert"
Personally, I believe it is to do with the ability to ski in a controlled manner on the given terrain. (and being in control means being able to avoid obstacles, turn, slow down and speed up, so straight lining it doesn't count!)
So, if we were to split skiing ability into 4 (beginner, intermediate, advanced and expert) and then split terrain into 4, you could say:
1. A beginner can ski in control on up to 25% of terrain
2. An intermediate skier can ski in control on 25% to 50% of terrain
3. An advanced skier can ski in control on 50% to 75% of terrain
4. An expert can ski in control on 75% to 100% of terrain
BUT (and there's always a but), as you get towards advanced and expert, there can be a split, and this causes further debate. You may see someone who is an expert skier on a prepared piste, but put them on bumps or in powder, and they flounder, does this mean they are not a good skier, or just they are a "specialist" in one type of skiing?
Over on Epic, this topic occurs every season. I have skiied with skiers who are better than me, and I have skiied with those who are worse. I'm not an expert but I know I have skiied with some.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wear The Fox Hat, good stuff. Your 4 level split is an interesting idea. Works well at the lower levels of ability. But would it be simpler and fair to just say an Expert can safely ski any accessible terrain under any conditions of snow and / or weather ? Anything less is just Advanced. Maybe Very Advanced but not the top of the heap.
{ I put the word 'accessible' in there to ward off pedants, who could otherwise accuse me of including Mt Everest in my definition of 'any terrain' }
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kuwait_ian, there's always discussions at the higher levels - I mean, some would say there is:
Intermediate
Advanced Intermediate
Intermediate Advanced
Advanced
I will never call myself an expert, until people who are experts, in my eyes, say that I am one. (And that's several years away, if ever)
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Very difficult to call, although I'd like to think that in group tuition the instructor could make an informed judgement after a very short time and anyone in the wrong group goes up or down accordingly by the end of the first day.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One might refer to an expert mountain guide, expert ski instructor, an expert on the half pipe or the park in general. All of these would be expert skiers though for different reasons.
In another context the 'expert skier' could be simply the chap who 'knows all about it' at your office simply because he always turns up an answer to any question on the subject (perhaps everyone at your office thinks U are the expert as U feast on data at snowHeads).
I think the word expert implies a high degree of specialisation and hence it is hard, if not impossible to be expert across a broad range.
Last season I was an expert as a friend and I followed our guide into some backcountry behind Tignes.
After all, he had said initially, "No ve cannot do zis in 2hours. U mus be very good for zis." Then, having seen us ski, he said, "Oh OK, I sink ve can go zer.".
So, expert I was, effortlessly keeping up with this half man / half mountain goat as we left fresh tracks on some nice steep hills.
Then my friend asked if he might give us some tips on our technique. "OK" he said, "wait ere till I say u go" and he dropped about 200 meters vert in about half a second - I wouldn't have cared if he'd looked even an inch out of control for just a moment but he might as well have been stepping off a kerb!
I must say, I felt decidedly intermediate at that point.
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It's all relative. I've skied for about 55 weeks across 21 years starting at age 11 and I sometimes feel like an expert - it's just possible for me to ski for a day at a small resort and see no-one who's better than me. I'm pretty good at most things, but then get me on a nasty mogul slope in flat light and I'm a complete muppet.
Certainly if I ski in a big resort like St Anton, Chamonix, Zermatt etc I will see people every day who are on a completely different level to me. So my definition is "you can ski for a day in a world class resort and see no-one who is better".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Plake, just how much does your skiing shift during the season? I've a history similar to yours, and usually start out 6/7-ish on Martin Bell's scale, (no speed fear though  ). It takes about 2-3 on-snow days for the timing and eccentric motion to click, after which I feel my skiing is one level higher at least.
So: sample at top form or on the first day at the resort?
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Martin Bell, I was trying to find where I'd posted stuff about the DM ratings on Epic, cause I do think they are good.
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You know it makes sense.
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A question for Martin Bell and David Goldsmith: what, in your opinion, describes an expert as there can be very few of them out there? Is it just a fantastic all round ability or are there specific competences that mark these 'Jedi Masters' apart from stumblers like me?
Oh yes, and if the rest of you are experts as well, please do chip in!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Martin Bell, is an expert. The rest of us are all intermediates!
Seriously though, here in LDA I/we tend to ask people how many weeks ski-ing they've done as we find this is generally the best guide. Their answer is not then subjective. If they say "6 weeks", then I would go on to ask where, what sort of runs they liked best (and where they were bearing in mind the differences in run colours) and so on. That way they are NEVER assessing themselves.
It has always seemed to me that people who think of themselves as experts generally aren't and the people who are genuinely experienced and certainly advanced (see all the weeks skied above) are reluctant to describe themselves as either advanced or expert. Perhaps we've all learnt how much more there is to learn?
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski - I find your method a little "unfair" being as I read these boards and there appear to be a large majority who have 2 hour boozy lunches, late starts and early finishes. When I ski, I ski from 9 to 4:30 taking an hour's lunch and ALWAYS take instruction at least a couple of days a week (there is ALWAYS more to learn).
So in effect if I said I'd done x weeks (hard skiing in Canada) that (IMO) is NOT comparable to someone who did x weeks p*ssing it up in Soldeu! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Alexandra, very valid point
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Alexandra, you take an hour for lunch? WIMP!
(OK, unless you take your lunch on a very slow lift, in which case I'll let you off.)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Different folks, different strokes. Here our Gods are those who make the national demonstrators team representing Japan at Interski; the gathering every four years where national teams show off their latest skiing and teaching techniques. One rung down from those experts are the slalomers. Downhillers aren't rated very highly because we don't have the terrain for that discipline. The super-experts are those who can adapt their piste technique to European off-piste conditions and make lots of money from video/dvd/magazine sales. The rest just look wonderful on groomed slopes 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Alexandra, you finish at 4:30? WIMP!
There's always a lift somewhere still running till 4:50 and if U time it right U don't get off the snow till well after 5:00.
(OK, unless the lifts close at 4PM, in which case I'll let you off.)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Last time I was skiing, I didn't stop until about 10pm...
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I knew you were fitted with Duracell batteries.
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Yup . . . Fuxup, in a 1500m vert. snowplow usually takes him till 22:00 to get off the mountain. Personally, I just think he's trying to avoid his round. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Masque, next time we meet, the first round is on me (AS USUAL)
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What? is that a 'who can get to bottom of the hill slowest' contest? yeah, I'll go for that this season . . . and the red mist of stupidity wil not cloud my eyes and I will not fall over, I will learn technique and control . . .
I can really write that with a straight face . . . not.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Alexandra, Of course I do ask if they've had instruction, but the boozy type don't usually bother with instruction anyway, so will never get off the intermediate plateau. That sort of skier will continue to rotate, force their turns and generally be a danger to other piste users. They don't actually want to be good skiers. Am I being unfair? Not really, after more than 30 years teaching ski-ing in lots of different resorts and a few different countries I find that weeks skied is the best guide BECAUSE it isn't subjective.
Even with lots of instruction comfort level on different runs is also to some degree dependent on miles under the skis. I have many students who can demonstrate beautiful technique on easy runs, but equperience is required to do the same of blacks, off piste, difficult snow and so on.
Just today I had a teenager who said she'd done "lots" of ski-ing, insisted that she knew all about everything, and then was afraid to ski the blue of the glacier on the way down. It turned out that she had only traversed on Castleford snowdome! It didn't matter, but case in point!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| easiski wrote: |
| ...Just today I had a teenager who said she'd done "lots" of ski-ing, insisted that she knew all about everything, and then was afraid to ski the blue of the glacier on the way down. It turned out that she had only traversed on Castleford snowdome! ... |
Your experience sounds a bit like the very last lesson of the season that I taught in March of this year.
On this otherwise beautiful spring day, when everybody was relaxed knowing that the mountain would be closing down in a couple of hours, I was assigned these two pouty 13 year old girls. As soon as their mothers walked away, they announced to me that "they didn't need a lesson - they could ski anywhere", "they didn't want to take a lesson, private or not", "we don't want to be told what to do", "we hate skiing - we're gymnasts - our mothers are making us do this", "we both have private trainers", etc. etc.
Deeply rotted spring slush, a dose of fatherly firmness and psychology, and a good helping of fun had them feeling very different by the end of the lesson.
(BTW, my SSD did give me a heads-up on these two before she made the introduction, and promised that she would be forever in my debt if I took them - grin.)
Back to the main discussion ...
I like the "weeks skied" metric. Unfortunately, at the hill where I teach, the units are usually days, not weeks. 
With respect to beginner, intermediate, advanced, and expert classifications, I am going to stick with what I said in the earlier thread on this topic. I still think that using a percentile and specifying a population is one of the more accurate ways to classify skiers.
For example, "the local experts" might be the top 5%-tile of skiers at the mountain under consideration.
The "office or neighborhood expert on skiing" would be the top 5%-tile of skiers in your office or neighborhood, even if this turns out to be only be one person, who in fact has only skied once in his life and broken his arm while doing it.
Same for terms like, "powder expert", or "expert guide".
I would reserve the term "true or worldclass expert" for someone in the top 5% of all skiers in the world, all disciplines, all terrain, all snow conditions.
Just my $0.02,
Tom / PM
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easiski,
Neat. Combination of two words Equipment and Experience. Useful
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You know it makes sense.
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kuwait_ian, thanks for the compeliment 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, after our lesson the other week, I have decided to have at least a couple of hours each holiday.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Helen Beaumont, Good move. Keep topping up the technique and the benefits are enormous (especially if you might be ski-ing more and more in the future). 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiki, nice expression 'keep topping up your technique'.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PM your answer proposes a canonical form for my question:
Can a 'true expert' have a bad day?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Can a "True Expert" get better?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, asking someone how many weeks they've skied for may be a start but wouldn't have worked with me & M Coins.
We had our first week in VT (I had done a bit of skiing on & off years previously but all forgotten). M Coins smashed his ankles when a kid, as a consequence has totally flat feet & sticky out ankle bones that don't agree with snowploughing - he went straight into parallel skiing. Our second week skiing (Les Arcs) we duly went along to ESF - group 2. Too easy for M Coins so they put him into group 4 except the instructor didn't speak English so they put him into group 5. So on his second week skiing he was bombing it down Aiguille Rouge whilst I was tootling along on the blues. Mind you, he had no technique as there was no instruction in his class, just follow my leader. As a consequence, he doesn't take any more lessons seeing it as waste of time/money & I don't take lessons with ESF any more.
He did take Club Ski in Banff this March for 3 days & what an improvement in technique now!
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FAQ
