Should Tour Ops give a safety talk before we hit the slopes?

A snowHead

Relating to an earlier thread on skier safety, would it be a good idea for tour operators, perhaps on the bus transfer to the resort, to give their clients a little talk on the importance of maintaining etiquette and safety on the slopes? Now I suspect must of us, as enthusiasts, know our skier code (I hope) but what about the less keen and enthusiastic? Would it make sense either for the tour op to give a talk or at least to give a hand out for the punters to look at? Of course, there are various ways in which such a move can be viewed; the 'nanny state' interfering with what to many appears common sense or an enlightened development designed to make the slopes safer for us all. Personally, I believe the more information that is made available the better, though I suspect most clients will take the same attitude to this sort of safety briefing as they do when EasJet, et al, give us their pep talk about aircraft security-complete indifference! What do you guys think?

A snowHead

A complete waste of time and breath, in my estimate the number of skiers who understand the skier code and etiquette would be in low single figures % wise. It's also impossible to enforce unless there's an accident and somone's injured. I know that Ali Ross has sued a skier who hit and injured him. All you can do is draw peoples attention to the relevant section of the piste-map and ask them to follow those guidelines

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I thought most reps handed out the code in their packups already - I guess the problem is getting people to take note. As for a spoken talk - I agree it might be treated like the airllines' one often is, I fear.
OTOH, the code is, effectively, taught by reputable ski schools - so perhaps things are not too bleak.

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Some TOs already do give a handout on piste etiquette and safety on the bus along with the 'Welcome Pack', piste map, etc. I think Nielsens and maybe Inghams do it. Costs nothing and might help some first timers. Some others send out safety stuff along with the tickets and insurance papers. I always read stuff like that. And I like to think I observe the 'rules'. I reckon most people on package deals will also have at least one member who reads and understands safety info - every little helps.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

The trouble is that so many people take no notice, in the last 5 or so years I have seen skiers on walking paths, sledges going across pistes both with and without people on them, walkers complaining about skiers only just missing them when it is the walkers who were on the piste (nearby well signposted walking path present with diagrams and 4 languages ), skiers crossing pistes without looking, out of control skiers and boarders on red runs, the list is endless but if these people had taken the time to read their skiers/mountain code none of those would have occurred. In the end it comes down to the fact that some people just do not care about anyone else, whilst others are just not aware they are doing anything wrong, the later you can deal with but the former will never take any notice till they get hurt. Mad

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Here's a link to a version of the code which has 7 items. Before you click it - can you list the 7 ? Be honest.

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Thomson and First Choice hand it out

After all it is free

In some of the US resorts you'll see parts of the code posted on the lift poles

Ian - did your little test - and honestly got 4 - but that was the first 4 which were on the list - and probably the most important ones.
Didn't think of: devices to prevent runaway equip - ski always have brakes, observe signs and warnings - yes but seemed too obvious to be a rule! and know how to use lifts - taken for granted - but yes important for newbies...
I think theres no harm in package operators having to give a briefing. Yes - people that have been before may ignore it, but the key is to letting beginners know about it. Lets face it - if it is your first holiday you probably will pay attention - the same way you probably paid attention on your first flight...

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mountain mad, If it's your first ski holiday you'll be having lessons. Surely this is when you learn the rules? And maybe you will take more notice of them if given by an instructor, rather than a tour rep, who's telling you to always use suncream, not to drink the tap water, blah, blah....

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As a newbie to this, I think a brief outline of what is responsible is a good idea. I know that the group we went with was having a chat about this in the bar one night .
Only those that had been taken off the nursery slopes had been given any tuition on etiquette etc.
There had been a video on the transfer coach but that didn’t really cover it (and you could barely hear it anyway)
Thanks
Rob

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mountain mad, I didn't get all 7 either. Forgot the 'obey all signs and warnings' - but I do that anyway. As you say, it's pretty obvious. Who ever gets any training on lifts - an instructor might tell you how to get onto a drag but I've never heard of instruction on getting off any kind of lift.

OT - BTW - how's the biking ?

You know it makes sense.

The problems with piste etiquette really do occur when runs merge together. Skiers may be focusing on the run ahead but when pistes merge, are they always aware of what is coming at them from the side? In these situations many skiers think they have right of way which, unfortunately, can result in collisions when both parties refuse to 'budge'.

Do we need more piste police to keep a check on the situation, especially during the peak season?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Yep, saw one of these in Kirkwood (Tahoe) from the chair going over the run - skier and a snowboarder both really motoring, run merged both turned into each other at the same time - neither really could have seen the other. The skier went flying (literally), amazingly the snowboarder didn't even fall over. Despite the rather mangled non-moving appearance of the skier the boarder only had time to stop and call the skier an Ar$ehole and off he went!! - how's that for etiquette Shocked

A snowHead

kevin mcclean, you've already answered the problem of crossing or merging runs somewhere else. Better resort design is the answer and where it cannot be done passive measures like nets, signs, barriers - the piste equivalent of 'sleeping policemen' are the only feasible methods of slowing people down to give them a better chance of taking avoiding action. Real 'policemen' - no thanks.

My only collision I can recall was a low speed one. Two of us set off at exactly the same time after standing on a 'lip' at the top of a steep slope. Heading on different angles unfortunately. No question of anyone coming from behind. At the first turn, we both zigged when it might have been better to have zagged and a mini moment occurred. No damage done. Difficult to say who (if any) was at fault - just one of those things.

brian

I was involved in a collision skiing down to Mottaret a few years ago. Casually crusing down the blue piste, l'Aigle, I was suddenly confronted by someone crossing over going from the top of one chair to the bottom of the next stage (can't remember the lift names, it was the 2 chairs under the Pas du Lac gondola). He was obviously trying to maintain speed to avoid a push along on the flat so that as I came over a slight rise there was no way either of us could stop. We both turned evasively but went the same way and hit each other head on. After a few minutes flat out trying to breathe, I could get up and ski, although I couldn't hold my right pole for the rest of the day. Very lucky considering the other guy had a broken fibia and collar bone and a helicopter trip to the hospital !

Anyway, my fabulous tour rep (Inghams I think) was nowhere to be contacted so I had to face the local grumpy gendarmes with my crap French, luckily my wife speaks it a bit better so they warmed to us a bit and there was no problem. With hindsight I'm sure I wasn't doing anything reckless, the other guy was crossing a piste pretty speedily but the real problem was the run layout, a piste junction just beyond a slight blind dummit and no warning signs. If it had been the US, I'd probably be a millionaire by now Laughing

Certainly made me think twice when in the vicinity of piste junctions.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

David@traxvax, I got injured by another skier (jaw broken in 3 places, 5 weeks off work, and ongoing problems with my whiplashed neck 10 years later) but it never got to court. His insurance company paid me - not enough, but I couldn't afford to wait any longer. At least I got some compensation though!

I don't think a) the TO's know the rules (yourself excepted of course) and b) no-one would listen.

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With the popularity of the mega resorts, especially at peak season, skier to skier crashes are a real problem. I haven't been to Mottaret in years but I know exactly what Brian is talking about-it's truly scary there at the end of the day when the light's flat, people are tired and rushing back for pints. I think part of the answer might lie in the need to wear protective clobber, ie head and spine apparel so that at least you have a chance if the untoward were to happen. Another problem is impatient speedsters going flat out on easy runs where beginners/less confident skiers are traversing beneath them-I've seen some unfortunate things occur in these scenarios. Everytime I see something horrible happen it gives me a dose of the willies, especially as I'm getting a little older and am aware of my own mortality!

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easiski, I know that feeling, the only fracture I've suffered in 5 decades of skiing was caused by an out-of-control female who crashed into me. I resolved that it was my fault for stopping, so now you don't see me on the 4pm charge, I'm long gone!

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After all it is free

Ski Espirit hand out the rules in their welcome packs and also have them listed down in their chalet brochures.

A major risk contributor has to be the design of runs to resort where blues/greens criss cross a black, enabling less skilled skiers to ski down rather than take a lift down at the end of a tiring day. It gets quite scary watching novices gatherin in large numbers whilst waiting for their chance to traverse steep blacks before continuing their decent. Even scarier watching them cross without stopping, because they either can't, or aren't aware of the potential danger.

I reckon the practice should be stopped, with dedicated green/blue down, or only a red/black with novices attempting a run beyond their ability directed to the lift, or banned from the piste by piste patrol. Harsh, maybe. Effective at cutting accidents, definitely.

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Nick Zotov, I know what you mean. A few people I met at the time reckoned that the "green" you refer to was harder in places than the black down into Tignes Le Lac, including one guy I'd say was as good as one could get at skiing outside of being a "professional". I'd tend to agree after coming a cropper on one icy patch!

The problem is that some unscrupulous resorts try and attract skiers of all abilities with false claims. They either need to be more honest, or re-work some existing pistes to reflect the various abilities of the skiers they wish to attract to their resorts.

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Lager, good point about that narrow section before the tunnel. Not a run for newbies or poss even early intermediates! I remember stopping there to help a guy who'd been "bounced" over the edge. Fortunately he was OK, but had lost a ski, and even after 30 mins looking we couldn't find it.

There were quite a few who were snowploughing down the right hand side, providing even less room for everyone else.

i hate that bit of run. a bottle neck of ice after hours of usually great skiing. went very very late one year - start of may - and all barriers on the left had been removed as it was the last day of the season. people were falling over left, right and centre - you could smell the litigation a mile off. it was carnage. would much rather hack over the top and ski le face at the end of a day, but even that run can get pretty gruesome!

You know it makes sense.

Yes, Val D'Isere is really not a resort for beginners. At the end of the skiing day that green run into La Dole, sorry La Daille, is a bloody nightmare for the inexperienced who are literally cut up by the more assertive who think they're pretty good on these sorts of slopes. Frankly, we can all put our toe on the gas on these runs but ultimately it proves nowt! Additionally, skiers and boarders tend to have a habit of stopping on the blind side of that tunnel for some reason which is totally inexplicable! What might help is for the slope authorities in the Espace Killy to employ a few 'courtesy' assistants to help beginners on these slopes who, and quite naturally, are terrified by skiing given the predominance of non-turning, skidding speedsters all around them!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

We need to persuade the European countries and/or individual resorts to come to some sort of standard for the marking of runs. Has anyone got any bright ideas on how?

Personally I think we should have 6 colours of runs. They should be measured on the steepest part of the piste (we measure ours by average from top to bottom), and then everyone would know what to expect, and would probably go to a suitable resort for their own enjoyment. The resorts would have less dissatisfied customers ..................

To help everyone out there: here in LDA our runs are fairly severely marked, a number of blues are really red, and if we call it black it really is! There's a lot more difficult ski-ing than appears on the piste map, which would lead you to think that we're a very intermediate resort.

As for David@traxvax, I avoid the late charge, and usually come down the last bit on a comfy chairlift - very pleasant at the end of a hard day.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Is the difficulty with grading pistes not caused so much by the constants such as gradient and width but by the variables such as snow condition and the number of skiers. Also the skiers own state both mentally and physically may play a part, how often does the act of skiing with an instructor change how you look at the difficulty of a piste.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

There is also the added difficulty of resorts having to market runs to attract certain standards of skier. For instance, it's well known that Val D'Isere has to have one or two easyish runs back to resort so that it can promote itself as a destination which everyone can enjoy! On the other hand, Valmorel and La Plagne are not exactly renowned for their steep terrain, yet they promote the availability of difficult skiing in their marketing. Essentially, piste grading is an art form and is, to a large extent, subjective and designed draw people into their resorts.

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A lot of accidents happen due to piste crowing at peak season. I know some of the US resorts limit the number of passes and people on the slopes at a given time, but do any european resorts?

With such large interlinked areas in Europe regulating numbers would be very much harder, but I could forsee a "no day tickets" rule when a certain number of longer term passes were current reducing crowding, although the day ticket locals tend to be better behaved in general than some longer term visitors. Perhaps also linking lifts could turn people back when a particular sector becomes too busy?

After all it is free

Lager - I agree unexpected flat sections can be as problematic. Maybe a few words of description for each run on the piste map would help, similar to that sometimes used for mountain biking or hiking.

Nasty drag lifts with steep sections and / or tight bends in good resorts have a sign warning off boarders. Maybe piste markers should have something similar where there are long flattish schusses or even worse slight rises part way down ? Not a safety issue as such - merely helping more enjoyment of the area and less trudging for the Darksiders.

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mesk1 I recall Whistler has a special snowboarder map a few years ago. It would have been really helpful if I had known that before handing the board back but it sounded like and excellent idea.

Help!!

Should Tour Ops give a safety talk before we hit the slopes?

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