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Calling the doctors.....

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Anyone care to comment on these supplements for helping old joints?

Some of the kitesurfers say it really does help!

http://www.agestop.net/Agestop/product_detail.aspx?PID=259

WHAT IS GLUCOSAMINE AND HOW DOES IT WORK?

Firstly healthy cartilage needs three things: water for lubrication and nourishment, proteoglycans to attract and hold the water, and collagen to keep the proteoglycans in place.

Proteoglycans are like a rope that threads itself through the collage and are essential as they hold many times their own weight of water, which both lubricates and nourishes the collagen. If the cartilage is damaged the thread of rope becomes weak and ‘leaks’ out and thus the collagen loses its nourishment as the proteoglycans lose their grip and float away. Thus the cartilage cannot withstand shocks, cracks and may wear out completely.
Glucosamine is a major building block of the water – loving proteoglycans. Besides being a building block for the synthesis of proteoglycans, its mere presence acts as a stimulus to the cells that produce proteoglycans – in fact glucosamine is a key factor in determining how many proteoglycans are produced by the cells.

Glucosamine has been shown to speed up production of both proteoglycans and collagen and it normalises cartilage metabolism which helps keep cartilage from breaking down.

Thus because of the affect of glucosamine on cartilage metabolism it can in fact help the body to repair damaged or eroded cartilage. In other words, glucosamine strengthens your body’s natural repair mechanisms.

Besides stimulating cartilage production, glucosamine also reduces joint pain and inflammation.

CHRONDROITON SULPHATE

Where glucosamine helps form the proteoglycans that sit within the space in the cartilage, chrondroiton sulphate acts like ‘liquid magnets’. Chrondroiton is a long chain of repeating nigans that attracts fluid into the proteoglycan molecules.
This is important for two reasons:

The fluid acts as a spongy shock absorber. The fluid sweeps the nutrients into the cartilage. Joint cartilage has no blood supply thus all of its nourishment and lubrication comes from the fluid that ebbs and flows as pressure is applied and released to the joint. Without this fluid, cartilage would become malnourished, drier, thinner and more fragile.

HOW CHONDROITON SULPHATE WORKS

Chrondoiton Sulphate is a long chain molecule with a negative charge attached to it. As these chains wrap around proteoglycans they repel each other and thus create spaces between each proteoglycan. These are what are known as matrixes within the cartilage and this is where the fluid flows. There may be as many as 10,000 of these chains on a single proteoglycan molecule – thus we have a super water retainer as these chains make sure all these molecules are away from each other and cannot clump together.

Besides drawing in precious fluid, chrondroiton:

Protects cartilage and stops it from breaking down and inhibits certain ‘cartilage chewing’ enzymes interferes with the metabolism of other enzymes that will starve the cartilage of fluid stimulates production of proteoglycans, glucosamine and collagen.

MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane):

Promotes Healthy Inflammation Response

MSM is a naturally occurring nutrient and sulfur compound. Sulfur is a component of bones, teeth, and collagen (the protein in connective tissue) and also helps you maintain a healthy inflammatory response in joint tissue. The mineral sulfur is needed for the manufacture of many proteins, including those forming hair, muscles, and skin.

How Long Should I Take Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM?

Studies show that long-term usage of Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM is most beneficial. Most patients see benefits within three to six months of regular usage
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I can comment anecdotally. A couple of years ago I had bad ankle joints, in both ankles, which ached badly on exercise. I started taking cod liver oil tablets and glucosamine/chondroitin tablets and since then I have had no problems with my left ankle and minimal problems with my right ankle (which was the worse of the two). But I'd let my fitness fall off at that time and aswell as taking the pills I have started doing a lot more exercise. So it may be the exercis that is responsible.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
kitenski, there is some evidence from clinical trials that glucosamine can be of help in reducing the pain and requirement for painkillers in osteoarthritis. However most of this evidence is from older and poorer quality clinical studies, and when newer studies are examined that were more rigorous, glucosamine is about as good as placebo pills. Nevertheless, some people still find it helpful. If you are going to try it you should use it for at least three months. It causes intestinal upset in a proportion of people who use it.

See http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab002946.html for a full review.
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kitenski,

Some other scientific data see:
http://www.clinicalevidence.com/ceweb/conditions/msd/1104/1104.jsp
For osteoarthritis comes under "unknown effectiveness"

http://www.clinicalevidence.com/ceweb/conditions/msd/1121/1121.jsp
For osteoathritis of the knee chondroitin comes under "likely to be beneficial "

Dave
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Numerous climbers swear by it for knackered knee joints, anecodotaly I've heard the best is to take the glucoseamine/chondroitin/msm combination tablets, it takes a few weeks to see an effect but it can be very beneficial. I used itfor a while when I twisted my knee and recovery was pretty quick although I couldn't swear that was down to the tablets. If you take it make sure the source is fish, bovine sourced chondroitin isn't as effective. The cheapest supplier I know of (this stuff is pretty expensive) is healthspan.co.uk they are based in Jersey but pretty efficient and I don't know of any problems anyone has had with it.

Lots of climbers discussio of it here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=1&name=&topic=glucosamine&body= although as this is a forum treat with the usual care regarding health information.
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cheers all,

I play hockey on artificial pitches, and that combined with skiing and kitesurfing does lead to sore knees, so reckon this stuff will be worth a try!

Regards,

Greg
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Generally when things get damaged they slowly recover. It is the Doctors' job (and especially the alternative practitioner) to extract as much cash from the sufferer in this period of time. As one gets older the recovery period gets longer and longer but fortunately for the quack the patient also gets richer and richer! These agents possibly make a very marginal difference in a very variable process.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Another quack writes: Just to add to the above, there is some suggestion that in those people who are likely to develop diabetes (usually a result of something called the "Metabolic Syndrome") glucosamine may cause you to develop it earlier. The evidence for an effect of glucosamine on arthritis - such as it is - is looking poorer and poorer. I think there is very little at all for MSN or chondrotoin, although all sorts of "claims for health" are made for them, I suspect to allow manafacturers to charge more.

There is a surprising amount of this that goes on. Many branded pain killers contain small doses of caffeine as well as paracetamol for no evidence -based reason - other than - some might cynically suggest, to induce repeat usage and more sales...

bbski, wish we could charge per attendance...
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A guy in our chalet was singing its praises last year- he was a golf pro, my mum took his advice and takes it now- seems to benefit her!
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My wife gave it a try to help with healing / using her broken wrist only to find she suffered from the intestinal reaction mentioned above Skullie
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I have to back up docsquid, stoatsbrother, and Dave Horsley on this one, although I'm not sure about the benefits of Chondroitin either. I wonder how long it has been since Clinical Evidence reviewed this subject?

The studies that showed an effect were older and poorly structured, more modern trials show little benefit over placebo, and some evidence of causing harm.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Though I haven't read every study myself & I have a inherent suspicion of most "alternative" medicine, my orthopod 5 years ago said glucosamine was the only supplement he took himself, having studied the conflicting data. I took it regularly while rehabbing a serious fracture and certainly didn't experience any negative effects & am back on again while strengthening my knee. Some people swear it cuts down on need for painkillers.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
fatbob wrote:
Though I haven't read every study myself & I have a inherent suspicion of most "alternative" medicine, my orthopod 5 years ago said glucosamine was the only supplement he took himself, having studied the conflicting data. I took it regularly while rehabbing a serious fracture and certainly didn't experience any negative effects & am back on again while strengthening my knee. Some people swear it cuts down on need for painkillers.


Five years ago, the evidence was weakly in favour of it, now it is not. As a matter that may be of interest to some, personal recommendation based on opinion is considered the weakest form of clinical evidence of effectiveness.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
My experience is a bit similar to fatbob, I've got slightly creaky knees (but I am 45) and was recomended to try it. I got it from healthspan.co.uk as Swirly, and thought it made a difference for a while, then went on summer hols for a couple of weeks and forget to take it with me. Not taking it didn't seem to make any noticable difference either. So I don't bother any more.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
but Dave Horsley says:

"http://www.clinicalevidence.com/ceweb/conditions/msd/1121/1121.jsp
For osteoathritis of the knee chondroitin comes under "likely to be beneficial "
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
kitenski, the search date for that part of Clinical Evidence was June 2004, I believe that there have been more and better structured studies published since then which have cast doubt on that benefit. I would be surprised if chondroitin stays in the likely to be beneficial catagory when this topic is next updated.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ok cheers Kramer, are there any online recent studies that I can read?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Try Wikipedia - the article on glucosamine has a number of references. It seems the jury's still out. The latest study was published early in 2006 and seems to suggest there could be a benefit to those with moderate to severe knee pain. As for me, I have very recently started taking glucosamine because my knees can be painful at times, oddly when going up drag lifts rather than skiing down. I am waiting to be persuaded of the benefit and will stop if I don't feel there is an improvement after 6 months or so.
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kitenski, try http://scholar.google.com/

On glucosamine & placebo being similarly effective, is glucosamine more or less expensive than placebo?


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 25-10-06 16:54; edited 1 time in total
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skanky, I can sell you some top quality placebo, if you like wink
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Hoppo, Laughing Laughing Sounds like you've been reading too many spam e-mails Laughing
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
As the placebo effect alone can be very effective, and as people who are taking the glucosamine are paying for it themselves, it may be an effective way of getting the benefits of the placebo effect.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Kramer wrote:


Five years ago, the evidence was weakly in favour of it, now it is not. As a matter that may be of interest to some, personal recommendation based on opinion is considered the weakest form of clinical evidence of effectiveness.


Don't disagree re clinical evidence, I'm not pushing it and actually my orthopod wasn't on me . The first thing he said to me was re chronic conditions you can have a lifelong cost if you stay with the programme of any drugs or supplements. I "felt" it benefitted me although I acknowledge this could simply have been placebo effect during a long and painful rehab. Doesn't really matter as long as it didn't break the bank or cause other long term harm, people spend plenty on things that have no objective benefit on their lives - new wallpaper for the living room, thinner televisions, new skis wink
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Has anyone tried Green Lipped Mussel capsules? A friend got them from a health food store & fed them to her 8yr old labrador who was really struggling with his hips (on a vets recommendation). After 3months, he was bounding round like a youngster again. Very Happy
Now you cant tell me that was placebo effect!
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fatbob, wasn't meaning to have a go at you personally. Very Happy

geri, I believe that the placebo effect may apply to animals as well.
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Kramer wrote:
fatbob, wasn't meaning to have a go at you personally. Very Happy

geri, I believe that the placebo effect may apply to animals as well.


No offence taken - I can appreciate the problems armchair experts and alternative practioners cause for the medical profession.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Kramer wrote:


geri, I believe that the placebo effect may apply to animals as well.


You'll have to explain that one to me? Puzzled
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I've had various back and other joint problems for a few years and tried glucosamine sulphate for about a year. For me they didn't really make any difference and I've now stopped taking them.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
geri, my understanding, and I'm not an expert in this, is that an effect very similar to that of a placebo is seen in some animal studies.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Not disagreeing Kramer but how wierd is that - implies animals know tablets are good for them? And if that is the in case why doesn't my bloody cat ever want to take them!
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a.j., if it's like our cat then it'll be because your cat's brain is made entirely of kapok, and thus completely inadequate for any sort of thinking Toofy Grin

This is a bit anecdotal but I thought it was funny:

Quote:

The animal may not consciously know he is expected to get better, or worse, or stay the same, but he will tend to respond to subtle ways in which his handler treats him, based on what the handler expects. This phenonemon has been well documented, where animals performed differently on various sorts tests according to what the animal's handler was told to expect of that animals's performance. I'm thinking, in particular, of an experiment I heard of many years ago, in which mice were trained to navigate mazes. The people training the mice were told that certain of the mice were particularly smart, while certain other mice were particularly dumb. The "smart" mice outperformed the "dumb" mice rather consistently. In fact, there was no difference between the two groups of mice other than what their handlers were told about them. It was the handlers' different expectations of the "smart" mice and the "dumb" mice that produced the difference in the performance between the two groups. Without realizing it, the handlers in some subtle way treated the "smart" mice differently than the "dumb" mice, expected better performance of the "smart" mice, and in fact observed better performance of them.


from http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/42514

There is a review of the area, but unfortunately I can't access it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10511866&dopt=Citation
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Hoppo, as you probably already know, that anecdote shows the reason why rigorous tests need to be "double blind" - i.e. both the experimenter and subject should be ignorant whether the treatment is active or placebo until recording the reuslts - rather than just "single blind" (ignorance is confined to the subject - and of course the 2nd-hand reporter).

Now, if this were a hifi forum, cue about 10 pages of how DBT doesn't work, toys being ejected from prams at high velocity and a couple of bannings Laughing .
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The placebo effect has, apparently, been seen in people who knew they were taking placebo...which shows how powerful it can be.
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GrahamN, The "bad science" around Hi Fi is not exactly foreign to skiing. which perhaps explains why there seems to be almost no attempt at all in most ski tests to cover the tops of skis to blind the testers... As for hifi - with its expensive power leads and top dollar interconnects - as they say "god made sheep to be shorn!"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
My mum would be so disappointed in this - she suffers quite badly from arthritis but has managed to control it drug-free by taking glucosamine and cod liver oil supplements and cutting out gluten, caffeine and alcohol from her diet (gluten & alcohol not all that successfully! wink )

I shan't tell her it's just a placebo effect Toofy Grin
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cathy, Sometimes just feeling you are taking control of your life helps coping with a chronic medical problem. Better to be a person with arthritis than a person suffering from arthritis. Us quacks have very little that alters progression of joint damage in Osteo-Arthritis (different situation for Rheumatoid Arthritis and other inflammatory arthropathies) other than to suggest weight loss for those with hip and knee problems who are overweight. So if she is doing something cheap and otherwise harmless - why stop her? Lots of people with osteo-arthritis have also quiet patches where they need very little help, and worse times - the current weather seems to be bringing a lot of people in.
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cathy, if it works for her then that's fine. As stoatsbrother writes, taking control is probably the most important thing.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
GrahamN, yes, it mentions double-blinding being necessary on the page I linked to - it would also be useful in the physical sciences - but it isn't routine there (the story of Millikan's oil drop is an interesting one) Toofy Grin

If the placebo effect is an effective treatment, then doctors could quite legitimately prescribe 'placebo' with the words "Here you go, prescription for X - it'll make you feel much better". I'm not sure if I want the doctors in the house to tell me they're already doing this or not. It'd also be interesting to know if patient outcomes were better if you just doubled contact time, or even increased it by a more modest amount.
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stoatsbrother, Kramer, interesting. I know when she's lapsed with her diet and has had alcohol and/or wheat products her arthritis is bad the next few days. Presumably this then is her thinking, oh no I've had a lapse, and thinking that she should feel worse.

Whatever it is, it does work for her and she's pleased she hasn't gone the drug/surgery path.
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 brian
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GrahamN, stoatsbrother,

A round up of sheep shearing products here .... wink Laughing

http://www.ilikejam.dsl.pipex.com/audiophile.htm
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