 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I bet that raised the heartbeat a bit 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
SammyQ, I bet that one necessitated a change of underwear........!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Certainly causes a palpitation or two, I once saw my father do the same thing. Amazing how far he drifted down despite the break being only 4 feet above him.
Is the moral of this story to be the photographer and let someone else set off the avalanche?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Scarpa wrote: |
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=708948051870566155&q=avalanche
A little bigger than they expected. |
That's a damn fine avalanche video, gives a real idea of the scales involved.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| killian wrote: |
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2275990421272321619&q=avalanche
Interesting footage of a skiier who triggers an avalanche and discussion with some avalanche expert on discovery channel |
Lucky guy. I think I saw this on Eursport lasy week. The guy skied to the bottom and was hanging around with the other skiers. He looked a bit shocked mind !
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Don't know why, but the link SammyQ posted isn't working for me.
On the first link, the guy seems to rather passsive. I'd be kicking my skis off, putting my googles over my mouth to maintain airspace and trying to get off my back and self arresting or swimming if it was deeper and I was going under.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Something I read suggested NOT to ski with your hands through the loops of your poles (off piste), as the poles act as levers to bring you forward face down in a slide. Better to loose the poles straight away. ????
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| Something I read suggested NOT to ski with your hands through the loops of your poles (off piste), as the poles act as levers to bring you forward face down in a slide. Better to loose the poles straight away. ???? |
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-22908.html
| Quote: |
| You need to swim hard in avalanche debris to stay on the surface. You can’t swim with things attached to your feet and hands. Never wear safety straps or pole straps. Always wear releasable bindings. Rig up snowboard bindings with a ripcord so you can get out of them in a hurry. |
Some special types of ski pole straps release in an avalanche.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I stopped using staps off piste last year. I never thought about kicking off ski's off or the goggles trick but both make perfect sense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| DB wrote: |
Don't know why, but the link SammyQ posted isn't working for me.
On the first link, the guy seems to rather passsive. I'd be kicking my skis off, putting my googles over my mouth to maintain airspace and trying to get off my back and self arresting or swimming if it was deeper and I was going under. |
I have set off three slides very similar to the one in that video, the first time I just sat there and thought it was all over. I only slid down around 3-4m before it came to a stop. The last two, after lots of analysis and training, my immediate reaction was:
exit route / self arrest (whilst pulling my goggles over my mouth)
equipment disposal
On both occasions I was able to stop myself quite quickly and was pleased that I didn't eject any equipment (skis, poles, back pack). If I had kicked off my skis I'm certain I would have lost them and would have been a long way from any lift system, a nasty journey in soft deep snow.
If you are at the very peak of a slab avalanche you should assess the situation before you start throwing gear away, but only experience and understanding can lead you to correctly evaluate the point of gear ejection. Read everything, spend time with experienced people and learn from them.
Check this out for a big slide. It's from NZ in 2003. It's a 96.2mb file but it's good quality and worth viewing.
http://patrol.mammothmountain.com/movies/Ruapehu030906.mpg
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
wow, would hate to be arround when those things happen
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
parlor, that mirrors my situation when i got caught in a slide. i was right at the top and although i got carried a long way, it was pretty clear from early on that i wasn't going to get buried. i actually concentrated hardest on looking for any rocks i might hit on the way down. thankfully there were none and there was a nice wide run-out so no-one was hurt. did shake us all up though
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
parlor, That was HUGE . . .
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| parlor wrote: |
I have set off three slides very similar to the one in that video, the first time I just sat there and thought it was all over. I only slid down around 3-4m before it came to a stop. The last two, after lots of analysis and training, my immediate reaction was:
exit route / self arrest (whilst pulling my goggles over my mouth)
equipment disposal
On both occasions I was able to stop myself quite quickly and was pleased that I didn't eject any equipment (skis, poles, back pack). If I had kicked off my skis I'm certain I would have lost them and would have been a long way from any lift system, a nasty journey in soft deep snow.
If you are at the very peak of a slab avalanche you should assess the situation before you start throwing gear away, but only experience and understanding can lead you to correctly evaluate the point of gear ejection. Read everything, spend time with experienced people and learn from them.
|
I haven't been in an avalanche but have slid over 50m down a valley on an icy/rocky off-piste slope, I survived but the jacket didn't. Remember being shocked at how much speed you can pick up in such a short time and how difficult it is to self-arrest. The longer you leave it to self arrest the more speed you have to deal with.
Take your point that if you can stop soon then fine but in my experience you don't have a lot of time to think about these things. If you aren't stopping you need to move fast and fight to get in the self arrest position and get the brakes on.
Even if I was at the top of the slab I'd be worried about further avalanches coming down the hill afterwards (as occured in the NZ clip you posted), wouldn't want my skis anchoring me down in that instance.
Yes losing the skis would be a pain in the neck but there's always the emergency services (who I'm sure would prefer you to lose your skis than have to find you and dig you out). Makeshift snow shoes out of tree branches are another possibility. http://www.gottagoitsnows.com/survival/002.html
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| DB wrote: |
| I haven't been in an avalanche but have slid over 50m down a valley on an icy/rocky off-piste slope, I survived but the jacket didn't. Remember being shocked at how much speed you can pick up in such a short time and how difficult it is to self-arrest. The longer you leave it to self arrest the more speed you have to deal with. |
400m (vertical) is my record for non-Avalanche sliding. Agree. Self arrest is one of the most important skills you can have. Stop, stop, stop. If I had stopped I may not of spent a week in Grenoble hospital.
| DB wrote: |
| Even if I was at the top of the slab I'd be worried about further avalanches coming down the hill afterwards (as occurred in the NZ clip you posted), wouldn't want my skis anchoring me down in that instance. |
This does depend on what type of avalanche it is. The original clip above and the 3 avalanches I'm talking about are wet slabs. If you access the snow field from the top you trigger most of the snow as soon as you put any weight on it. Which is why, if you remain calm enough, you should look around you to assess the situation.
is there snow above me that is going to bury me?
where am I being taken? terrain traps / rocks / cliffs
is there an exit point?
This is all closely linked to experience and understanding. These slides occur in warmer conditions, you do have a little more time.
This is another reason for extreme care when traversing slopes, if you coulr release a slab and be half way down it already. At this point it's gear disposal time.
If the conditions were cold and I heard / saw any tell tale signs of a powder avalanche my reaction would be very different. As in my clip from NZ, this is a totally different avalanche to the one in the clip we are discussing.
| DB wrote: |
| Yes losing the skis would be a pain in the neck but there's always the emergency services (who I'm sure would prefer you to lose your skis than have to find you and dig you out). Makeshift snow shoes out of tree branches are another possibility. http://www.gottagoitsnows.com/survival/002.html |
And I would rather lose a ski than a knee or my life. Just in the clip from your original comments I think you see him attempt to self arrest initially and then just ride it out. Sometimes this is the best option for a small slab slide. Your less passive approach may, in this situation, have made the outcome worse.
It's just "horses for courses". There are different types of avalanche and each really needs a different reaction. Which is why I'm a huge advocate for avalanche awareness courses and getting as much experience as you can before you need to rely on that experience.
I'm not knocking your suggestions, if you automatically followed that advice in an avalanche situation you are doing pretty much everything you can to improve your survival chances. I just don't think what the guy did was totally wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Hopefully out of just academic interest, what's the easiest way to kick off your skis while you are sliding down on/in a mobile slab?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Hopefully out of just academic interest, what's the easiest way to kick off your skis while you are sliding down on/in a mobile slab? |
I'd use heal of one foot onto the back of the other foot's binding. (For the first ski it would be ski-base under heal striking top of other foots rear binding).
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 17-10-06 11:37; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, I've discussed this with a few people. We agreed that the most unlikely way would be to use sheer force on the tails pushing straight down. The best (if you are now floating) would be to actually use the bindings to release the ski but this would probably involve turning your ski out too much and may not be possible. The alternative is knocking the tail of the first ski against your other boot so that you twist out of the binding, and then kicking the other boot out of the binding with you free boot. Otherwise a wild tail kicking thrash should set you lose and you set you up for the 'swimming' technique to try and keep you on the surface. This is all theory and I hope to keep it that way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| parlor wrote: |
| I'm not knocking your suggestions, if you automatically followed that advice in an avalanche situation you are doing pretty much everything you can to improve your survival chances. I just don't think what the guy did was totally wrong. |
No probs I think we mostly agree, wanted to point out to other snowheads more than anything that there are things you can do other than just sit it out. Many sources say just discard all equipment, I can see where this may not be the best option now. Always interested in discussing potential lifesaving tips and am thankfull for your input.
Have you ever considered ABS airbags or self-arrest poles?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
DB, me too, good and thank you.
I have seen a ski pole / ice axe converter handle (add to your own poles) that caught me eye. Not sure if I would be that comfortable skiing with a small ice axe on my ski pole though. It may be something I think about. Self arrest is such a key skill, very hard to practice and difficult to implement in all situations, a tool would help. Maybe.
ABS. The more I think about it the more I want it. Just now I really can't afford / jusitfy it. I usually carry a 30L pack and need that sort of size, that makes ABS very expensive for my empty wallet. If I had the cash no doubt I would buy. If you can afford it, buy it, it can only help.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Hopefully out of just academic interest, what's the easiest way to kick off your skis while you are sliding down on/in a mobile slab? |
I actually tried (briefly) to get rid of my skis in the slide i was in. It was very difficult, made worse by the fact that the slide happened as I was skinning up the slope with the heel released. I wouldn't have thought it would be too hard to twist your foot out of the binding if you don't have the DIN set too high. Not so easy if, like Parlor, you max out your Marker race bindings  Remember, if you're in a big avalanche, you're likely to be getting tossed around which might make the skis release of their own accord
Anyway, good to think about all this, but best to think really really hard about avoiding them in the first place...
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Scarpa, If that was the avalanche they set off on the Aguille Rouge in March of this year, I think I actually watched it happen (but from the top of the 4 man chair linking to Arc 1800 - can't remember the name). The resort of Arc 2000 completely disappeared from sight for a while
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
parlor, DB,
>>Self arrest is one of the most important skills you can have.
What sort of techniques do they teach ? I imagine wanting to try and dig in with the tops of my ski poles and / or getting an edge using my ski's ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Caspar, was that the one PG posted the pictures of?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
FenlandSkier, Don't know - didn't see PG's pics
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| david@mediacopy wrote: |
parlor, DB,
>>Self arrest is one of the most important skills you can have.
What sort of techniques do they teach ? I imagine wanting to try and dig in with the tops of my ski poles and / or getting an edge using my ski's ? |
Just tried to find some diagrams (I have them in books at home) on the internet but failed.
Typically self-arrest is done by mountaineers with an ice axe whereby they dig the axe into the hard snow / ice to brake their fall (and hopefully stop themselves).
As skiers don't generally carry ice axes they have to use what's available which could mean ski edges, ski poles, ski boots etc.
In order to self arrest you need to get off your back and get your head up-hill. This is not easy on ice and a number of comments I've read along with personel experience say that if you wait for speed to build up on a steep icy slope (and it will very quickly on ice) you will get past the point of being able to stop (although any braking reduces impact speed). Getting onto your front or side with a backpack on is difficult but speed doesn't make it any easier so sooner rather than later is better. http://www.grivel.com/Products/Dettaglio_piccozze.asp?ID=23
A trailing hand on one side can help to rotate your head uphill but becareful not to apply too much pressure too soon or you could go into a spin. Getting off your back isn't so easy (anybody got tips on how to do this?)
In softer snow you can also achieve a fantastic speed by sliding down on a modern fabric head first on your back. If you manage to rotate yourself having your head uphill and face down to the snow without skis then a pressup action will dig your ski boot toes into the snow and slow you down.
It's basically using what you have at your disposal (inc skis/poles/axes or not) to slow you down the quickest. The ski poles won't do much in soft soft, the ski boots won't do much on ice, as Parlour says "Horses for Courses"
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 17-10-06 14:55; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Here are some pictures of what DB has explained. If you have an object to "dig in", it's important to apply as much weight as possible to it, so under the body, not hanging out to dry.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
I recall a few years ago I had a tumble on a steepish 'red' and was surprised how tricky it was and how long it took to stop, especially when head first. In a slide it must be very difficult indeed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
skimottaret, Lucky chap.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
