 Poster: A snowHead
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There's lots of talk about bases and waxing, what's good, what's not, what's pants, what's dangling . . . what's never talked about is the ongoing development of the materials used. I know a tiny little bit and most of that is second hand and nearly ten years old.
I know that plastic is movable feast, can be created in thousands of forms with thousands of properties and is in CONSTANT development.
I know that plastic is not porous in the sense that it absorbs wax like a sponge with interconecting open chambers . . . base plastics are manufactured in a closed cell form with tiny bubble (or not) voids that are open only at the cut face and only those can be filled with wax and are used to anchor a thin surface coating of wax and stop it just being peeled off.
10 years ago I had a long chat with a Swiss engineer from DuPont who said even then that 'high-end bases did not need waxing, only good structure maintenance and a Teflon based wipe as needed and it was only race bases that were engineered to hold a specific coating of wax for the specific conditions of the race and even then it was mainly the quality of the 'structuring' (the tiny lengthways grooves) that determined acceleration and top speed
The Elan boards I used at Cas were very slippery straight out of the wrapper and the blurb boasts about the 'new' base material.
Are we wasting our time using 30 year old products and techniques in waxing these new materials that bear little if any relationship to the stuff we were waxing just five years ago let alone 20.
so . . . Wanted, a plastics engineer for some up to date reality on the stuff we're sliding around on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Do you want a slippery plastics engineer, or someone you can trust implictly?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Technically, I'm nearly a plastics engineer in that I did my PhD. in polymer physical chemistry...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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That'll do
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm a mechanical engineer who puts a lot of things on his credit card. Is that close enough?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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'I like to melt things', does that count?
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| martski wrote: |
| 'I like to melt things', does that count? |
Well, if it's ice in a glass with some Ricard, no, that makes you a drinking buddy...
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so many minds . . . so little function . . . 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sorry, Masque. Mea culpa.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Masque wrote: |
I know that plastic is not porous in the sense that it absorbs wax like a sponge with interconecting open chambers . . . base plastics are manufactured in a closed cell form with tiny bubble (or not) voids that are open only at the cut face and only those can be filled with wax and are used to anchor a thin surface coating of wax and stop it just being peeled off. |
Whoa.
Let me stop you right there.
UHMW-PE ski/snowboard bases are manufactured using sintering (well the top end skis anyway, cheapo skis are still extruded) to produce a highly porous matrix.
Leaching hot wax into the voids in the structure is still valid for this type of ski base construction, and indeed extruded bases, but their absorbtion is less.
P-Tex1000 (extruded) - wax absorbtion 1.3mg/cm2 measured Oe norm C9745 @ 110 deg C
P-Tex4000 (sintered) - wax absorbtion 2.2mg/cm2 measured Oe norm C9745 @ 110 deg C
I posted the following sometime ago in here:
+++++++++++++++++++
Bases:
All bases are constructed from HDPE (high density polyethylene) - (P-Tex is merely a trade name, manufactured by IMS Plastics, or IsoSpeed from IsoSport), or UHMW-PE (ultra high molecular weight PE) - (DuraSurf is a manufacturer of such base materials).
These are available in Extruded or Sintered form.
Extruded is cheaper, found in entry and mid level equipment. 3 grades of extruded: 1000, 1500 and 2000. The higher the grade, the greater the resistance to wear and the tougher the base material is. Extruded bases do not hold wax as well which means it is more important to regularly wax these bases to avoid drying out.
A sintered base is superior - it's more durable, faster and holds wax better than an extruded base. It's also more expensive and difficult to repair. It comes in three general grades: 2000, 4000, 8000. This type of base is found on higher performance equipment. To further improve performance manufacturers will add ceramic fibres to improve wear resistance. Graphite is also added to reduce static build up at higher speeds to aid performance and turning.
Edges:
The majority of edge material on the market today has a Rockwell hardness of 48. Other companies boast about it, but it's the same for all edge material. Not convinced yet about Atomic's "Dura Edge" yet...... I suspect it's some form of hard chrome alloy plating (eg; Dura-Plate by TechPlate) who claim a Rc of 70. Hardly "5 times as hard as other edge manufacturers".
As mentioned before, some manufacturers run a second edge inside the first set.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 3-10-06 18:01; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| veeeight wrote: |
Graphite is also added to reduce static build up at higher speeds to aid performance and turning.
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ah thanks veeeight....
that explains why the stockli race skis with "racing graphite base" or whatever it is on the website .... are so fast on traverses....
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You know it makes sense.
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| little tiger wrote: |
ah thanks veeeight....
that explains why the stockli race skis with "racing graphite base" or whatever it is on the website .... are so fast on traverses.... |
Yep. And Atomic boast ceramic fibres under the bindings to ease turn initiation............
My god. I sometimes amaze myself at my brilliance.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I just thought a nice bit of lard would do the trick lol
for what its worth - i use Zardos NotWax on my skis
A
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Poster: A snowHead
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adam_button, lard makes the skiers quicker, not the skis.
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