 Poster: A snowHead
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I don't know if anyone else finds this...
Sometimes I ski with very "fast feet" and can do 10-15 very quick turns down the fallline or through the bumps. But most of the time I can't. 
The thing that's annoying me is that I can't do it on demand. It happens and then it doesn't. And I just don't know what it is that I do differently to allow it to happen.
Is it balance; being "stacked"; being more relaxed; being centered...?
Given that I'm in full pre-season training mode, I was wondering if anyone's got any thoughts on this or any pre-season exercises that might help.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Good question - me too!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PhillipStanton,
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Is it balance; being "stacked"; being more relaxed; being centered...?
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Yes all of them !
What do you mean by
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| I can't do it on demand |
?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ski wrote: |
What do you mean by
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| I can't do it on demand |
? |
As I've developed as a skier I've been able to develop a set of "triggers" I can use to change my skiing style. So, for example, if I want to swap into doing cross-under turns, I imagine that there's a low ceiling above my head and everything else just happens by itself.
But the thing that I can seem to find a "trigger" for is fast feet - I'll be lumbering inelegantly down some bumps and I'll suddenly do 10 down the zip line. And I don't know how / why I've done it. Similarly, if the piste is crowded and I want to ski the margins to avoid the on-piste chaos, then sometimes I can do it in a 15 foot corridor and sometimes in a 5 foot corridor.
Somewhere inside me I obviously know how to do it - I just want to gain some control of it so that I can do it when I want / need to.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Too much thinking involved for me
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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PhillipStanton, Does 'Fast Feet' describle EXACTLY what you want to do.
If you mean, short radius turns in the fall line - does that really mean fast feet ?
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| JT wrote: |
| Too much thinking involved for me |
probably exactly the point. if you want to do something really fast it has to be so natural that you barely think about it. that just comes with practice doesn't it? although i would have thought that general balancing, core strength and fast reaction training would be helpful
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| JT wrote: |
| Too much thinking involved for me |
May well be JT, but it's what I do unfortunately.
| ski wrote: |
PhillipStanton, Does 'Fast Feet' describle EXACTLY what you want to do.
If you mean, short radius turns in the fall line - does that really mean fast feet ? |
Yes and no. I can do short radius turns down the fall line and I can do them when I want to.
But sometimes I can do them with a real fleetness of foot - probably 2 or 3 times my normal fastest turn rate.
laundryman - is that what you mean as well?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The fastest feet were achieved by pre-plastic ski boots, because the added element of ankle control (provided one had the strength in the ankles) enabled the 'wedel' technique of much quicker edge changes than are possible in a rigid-shelled boot.
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PhillipStanton, I think it's about staying centred on the ski. When we do short turns the ski will accelerate quickly, and your body may well get left behind. This leaves you with bent knees and unflexed ankles (try saying 'in the back seat' in a Scots accent). This means that a) you are not in a good position to make string movements with your leg an b) It's much easier to turn a ski when you are standing on the middle, as opposed to the back of it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks ski.
"in the back seat in a Scots accent"...
"in the back seat' in a Scots accent"...
"in the back seat' in a Scots accent"...
I can feel it helping already  No, seriously, thoughts much appreciated.
Thanks as well Arno and JT.
David Goldsmith - 'wedel' technique? A bit before my time I'm afraid. Care to enlighten me?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Phillip, the wedel technique evolved from advances in ski quality, ski edges and boots. Essentially skiers became more agile and capable of performing quick linked parallels. 'Wedel' became a really widely used word in skiing. 'Wedel courses' were commonly offered by Austrian ski resorts, pre Christmas, as a way of whipping up early business for hotels and ski schools.
Pronouced: "vaydle"
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David Goldsmith, I'm not sure I agree. I am sure you can get more turns in per minute and metre using modern kit than anyone in hiking boots and 215 metre planks could.
PhillipStanton, interesting question. See a ski instructor!
But seriously...is your upper body relatively calm/static? Are you "anticipating" the next turn with your arms? Those are things I find key to high frequency turns/bumps. And if you're in bumps, are your feet together (most of the time)?
Maybe you should try slalom on rollerblades?
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You know it makes sense.
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PhillipStanton, I think a lot of it's between your ears too. Some days when I'm on my mountain bike I feel a bit out of sorts and struggle with technical sections.
Other times I feel more "at one" with the bike and float over anything. I can't put it down to anything in particular, although a shed load of booze the night before tends to get rid of the zen-like control pretty easily.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| PhillipStanton, interesting question. See a ski instructor! |
I do, have done and will 
| David Murdoch wrote: |
But seriously...is your upper body relatively calm/static? Are you "anticipating" the next turn with your arms? Those are things I find key to high frequency turns/bumps. And if you're in bumps, are your feet together (most of the time)?
Maybe you should try slalom on rollerblades? |
I'm a yes to most of that * except the anticipation. Which is worth me looking at.
The rollerblades are a good idea. I've got a pair and had been ignoring them because my knee was still a bit fragile. But it's probably safe for a go now.
| marc gledhill wrote: |
| PhillipStanton, I think a lot of it's between your ears too...although a shed load of booze the night before tends to get rid of the zen-like control pretty easily. |
Also a good observation. I have noticed that I can snap into whatever it is I do when I'm particularly frustrated with some idiot in front of me. I can't spend a whole season being frustrated though!
* Except in big, scary bumps.
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Poster: A snowHead
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PhillipStanton,
I have found I get the biggest gain in short turns when i remember to move** the damn hips forward.... For more info try my instructor in Livigno - because he made me do the best short turns I have ever done... and explained why they worked better only AFTER I had done them (poor canadian has been trying to move those hips for about 2 years I think)... I'm heading back to get the hips under control this season because he made it dead easy (like we went from working on some stuff in long turns to that and it just happened and I have no idea how)... before those turns I was like you - a few good turns then *poof* magic gone... he had me ski a whole run of scraped off black run with speed control and I NEVER felt one of those turns was not spot on and the feet plenty zippy enough (I'm a slow twitch muscle kinda person so that is often an issue)
Other big practice point... as I am a slow twitch kind of girl... my staatliche that I ski with back home has a current exercise he wants me to do to get "faster feet" .... just edge roll down a road/run out ... but instead of the long slow edge changes... do them as FAST as you possibly can... just keep swapping those edges.... (NOTE - be sure you can do solid edge rolls first - and you WILL lose it if you try to go as fast as possible - so be balanced and prepared and use flat/easy terrain staying away from others...)
** note not "get out of the back seat" - but actually MOVE them forward through the turn at the correct spot... this is the trouble the canadian had - my movement timing is always poor due to my physical issues... somehow the Italian had it worked out how to teach the whole thing in soem round about obscure way that i did not notice until the run of shorts when I suddenly had it all together... I'm sure I skied up to him looking like the cheshire cat!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ummm.... just when you drive forward in turn with ankles/knees etc (ie all stretching outish?? in turn direction...) you do same with pelvis (I think)....
Sorry - remember my disability means I have almost no awareness of body position and changes in same.... It is a VERY small distance - but the result is big....
don't think salsa - think rocky horror show.... "do the pelvic thrust" (but far more subtle and smooth)
It is definitely an extension through the hip joint if I understood the canadians instructions... so think making the angle between your legs and body greater at the front - by dragging your butt forward a tad...
Feels?
You are just that bit more over the ski early... so you do not get that "oops" feel as it gets just ahead... with the skis more under the body the next transition is far easier to initiate... ie you do a little more work early... and hence far less later....
easiski or veeeight may be better to describe it...
From my canadians description many folks do not get this bit easily and almost never enough movement at right place... and he said it was very necessary in slalom for instance...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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try this third post down...
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=38927&page=2&highlight=sync
watch the two racers (sync them so they ski together).... then you can see the movement (or lack of)....
Disclaimer - I'm not doing THAT.... just starting to move hips in same direction....
disclaimer 2- I may have it totally back bottom about... but that is how I understood the move goes and why you do it so I think Bob's talking of the same thing but at a higher level...
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| PhillipStanton wrote: |
Let's do the Time Warp yeah... |
i do hope you are not wearing the gear... especially when skiing... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| David Goldsmith, I'm not sure I agree. I am sure you can get more turns in per minute and metre using modern kit than anyone in hiking boots and 215 metre planks could. |
David, you'll note that I made no reference to skis - just ankle control and boots.
I've seen, with my own eyes, the precision and speed of a top Austrian racer/instructor in the mid-Seventies achieving about 3 edge changes per second. On modern skis he'd undoubtedly increase that frequency.
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David Goldsmith, not trying to be controversial or antagonistic, honest.
Just questioning
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| The fastest feet were achieved by pre-plastic ski boots, |
That's all. I've watched some lovely wedeln, and have a horrible feeling these youngsters might now refer to it as "braquage" (who the feck invented that word?).
But my recollection of wedeln is that it is not intrinsically that fast??
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'd agree with that David - the wedel technique, as I recall, was not necessarily applied to high-speed edge changing. But at the time that many boots still supported the ankle joint without locking it laterally a really skilled skier could get an amazing series of snaking turns down a nice smooth run on a gentle/medium gradient.
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David Goldsmith, and leave a very beautiful set of lines too! Ah the days...(when you actually had to learn how to ski! @@%£$£)
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You know it makes sense.
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Wedeln is completely different from braquage.
The animated gif that comprex kindly posted is of Ott, performing some nice wedeln.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PhillipStanton wrote: |
| laundryman - is that what you mean as well? |
Pretty well. Mainly it seems I'm just not made to turn the feet that quickly (any more than run a four-minute mile), but sometimes it just happens.
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Poster: A snowHead
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veeeight, aren't his feet too far apart for true wedeln...
So just what is the difference from "braquage" (a word I had never heard of until I met SHs...)??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Who wants to ski like that..???
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Murdoch,
as i was taught it simply is french for "steering" or "twisting" the ski... although usually applied to steering a non-engaged edge...
Might be wrong (it was a long time back - in relation to my first lesson with an austrian... so probably 5 years now)
Most people seem to use it in reference to s specific exercise they use to teach such "twisting/steering" stuff....
I think like wedeln the words get sort of corrupted with time and usage...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The difference I've seen between what a couple of people call "braquage" and wedeln is that wedeln seems to involve the skis facing down the fall line more, whereas whenever I've heard spyderjon (since he is one of the very few who use the term!  ) talk of "braquage" when on the snow, it was with reference to pivot-slip turns, which involve the skis being perpendicular to the fall line, then being turned round to face across the slope in the opposite direction.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Doesn't wedeln involve pushing the heels from one side to another, whereas bracquage is about foot rotation?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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PhillipStanton, It's all about relaxation, detatching the mind from the body and letting things flow. 
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Have you been out gardening ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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LARGEZOOKEEPER, not sure, but I thought he was talking about peeing...
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little tiger's right - braquage involves steering the ski by rotating a completely flat ski - no edge whatsoever. As such, it's at completely the other end of the technique scale from pure carving, which (as we all know) involves absolutely no rotation and as much edge as you can get.
If you do it properly you can turn the skis in their own length straight, around the ball of the foot and straight down the fall line. You control your speed by relying on the friction of the base to slow you down. It's supposed to be good for dealing with couloirs, bumps and ice - although I've only so far got the hang of doing it on ice.
If you're not stacked then it's very hard to turn the ski - and if you edge at all you'll deviate off the fall line - I can do it in a 3-5 feet corridor on a good day.
I've just looked up wedeln - in German it means to wagl or wag the tail.
From ifYouSki:
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| Austrian skiers, including Toni Sailer, dominated the racing scene. Wedeln, defined by skiing guru Professor Kruckenhauser as 'parallel turning in quick succession using reverse shoulder and heel pressure,' became all the rage. |
an alternative definition I've found is:
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| Advanced form of parallel skiing in which the ankles and knees manipulate a series of rhythmic half-turns. German for wagging the tail. |
I'm having trouble finding any technical descriptions of how it's done though. Though reading what I have, this might be what I'm doing.
Anyone who thinks that wedeln is an "old technique" should have a look at the scary "official test" material here. Nice to them at the cutting edge of technique.
There's a couple of lovely vintage articles here and here.
And finally - for anyone interested in the Dipsy-doodle and Vorlage techniques?
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