 Poster: A snowHead
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… about avalanche chat?
Quite a few posts appearing just lately about avalanches – taking some training, investing in the gear (or not) and even “uncomfortable avvy tranceivers”. In 30 odd years of skiing I’ve only had involvement in avalanches 4 times and each time I’ve learned a lesson - mainly, avoid at all costs! One was a small slab I accidently set off above the Cas car park on Cairngorm while traversing to my car further down. The thing only slid a few metres but was powerful enough to make childsplay out of shifting a parked Transit van its entire length. Second was watching in awe (from the lift) a relatively small one going into Happy Valley St Anton (closed at the time). Third one was a practice at the scene of a slide – ever tried using a shovel on snow that’s set like cement? I certainly wouldn’t like to have to try and dig someone out for real! Lastly, I visited the utter devastation in Le Tour shortly after the event a few years back - Nuff said.
I’m told that one cubic metre of wind slab weighs one tonne. So an avalanche might weigh, say, several thousand tonnes and will out-accelerate my Pagani Zonda (just joking there it’s actually a Bugatti Veyron). If that hits you or engulfs you I think it best to assume that “all the gear” will not help. I say “assume” because betting people would not place a win bet on your survival or on the competence of your mates trying to locate you. The romantic “Warren Miller” notion of out-skiing an avalanche is just plain nuts and the stats quoted for survivability paint a somewhat rosy picture in my view. I’m not saying that people don’t survive or get rescued from avalanches (or even occasionally “out-ski” them sideways) but… best assume you won’t then you might not put yourself in the situation in the first place.
So, buy “all the gear”, read the books, go on a course, go bury your tranceivers in the woods and practice all you like but nothing can really prepare you for the main event! I think the “all the gear” culture has more to do with fashion for some people. Controversial? Moi?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller, actually snow weighs less than an equal volume of water, it can be anything from 100kgs per cubic meter for fresh powder to something approaching 1000kgs per cubic meter for old packed wet snow, water of course being 1000kg per cubic meter
As for avalanches weighing several thousand tonnes that would be a fairly small one, the biggest ones such as that which hit Galtur in Austria can be over 1,000,000 tonnes travelling at speeds approaching 200kph.
Relatives of some good friends of mine in Wengen Switzerland were killed when an avalanche destroyed their home, it was only a relativly small slide less than 30M across but it still snapped the substantial wooden beams of their chalet as if they were only match sticks.
Now having said that, not all avalanches move at such high speeds or have so much destructive power, I know personally several people who have survived small avalanches with nothing more than a few bruises, when judging the risk of avalanches nothing beats local knowledge, but a good understanding of the conditions likely to cause avalanches may save your life, likewise having a transiver when going off piste can't hurt
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bode Swiller,
Yep, but you can't ignore the possibilty so talking about it might be a help, if only to know its not for you and you want to avoid that terrain like the plague. No one needs to be complacent and not know there is a risk..
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| Quote: |
if only to know its not for you and you want to avoid that terrain like the plague
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True.
You only have choices until the slide begins. So best not to be on it at that point.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Call me a fashion victim but if I get buried alive, I'd like the chance to get dug out alive 
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Bode Swiller, definately agree that the best approach is to avoid in the first place. That said, if I happen to be around when something like this happens I would want to try and help, even though the chance is slim, I would hate to not at least try. On the flip side, if (and it is a big if) I happen to be caught up myself, any thing that increases my chance of survival is worth paying for so I tend to think of it as another form of insurance.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| the stats quoted for survivability paint a somewhat rosy picture in my view. |
I suspect you are misinterpreting the stats (as do many others).
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I've only attended a couple of "avalanche chats" and most of the time was spent on snow quality/conditions, safe practice off-piste and avoiding avalanches. I think the emphasis on avoidance was appropriate. Also, from previous discussions on here and other sources, if you have failed to avoid an avalanche, if serious about survival, far from being over-gadgeted already, it seems that additionally an Avalung and Avalanche AirBag are also essential, and not just a transceiver. IMV it would then be churlish not to carry a shovel and probe too. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I was with a party where the guide started a slab avalanche and skied out of it. And I have been with a guy who was trapped in an avalanche and was rescued.
But I absolutely agree with staying out of trouble in the first place. However, I would not dream, these days, of skiing off-piste without the kit; the unexpected can always happen. If it has become the fashion to carry the kit and know how to use it, I'm all for it - it offers me a greater chance of survival if an avalanche strikes.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| So, buy “all the gear”, read the books, go on a course, go bury your tranceivers in the woods and practice all you like but nothing can really prepare you for the main event! I think the “all the gear” culture has more to do with fashion for some people. Controversial? Moi? |
Beeper goes on top of base layer but under all other layers. (For safety reasons). NEVER walk around the pub with your beeper showing. (Because all the locals will know you are an idiot that probably doesn't need the beeper).
Shovel handle, blade and probe ALL go inside your backpack. (Because if you don't, you will loose them).
So if none of your gear can be seen, how is it a fashion statement?
True enough though. "Nothing can prepare you". So acquire as much knowledge as possible so that you can try and avoid avalanches in the first place... and then practice so much that *should* it happen your search pattern in second nature.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Transcievers aren't just so other people can save you, they are so you can go and save other people. What would you feel if you saw people get caught by an avalanche but couldn't locate them under the snow because you didn't have a transciever... and they died. I always wear my transciever (but then, I'm off piste most of the time).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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How many lives have been saved by transceivers? We've discussed this, but I can't recall any data being sourced (apologies if I missed something).
I agree with Bode Swiller that avoidance is the art of survival. However, I think it's relevant to weigh up the relative merits of cheap and expensive survival gear.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| How many lives have been saved by transceivers?........ |
Have a look here, Figure 12, for a start.
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brian
brian
Guest
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Bode Swiller, right that's it, proof positive, you're abominable !! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The only problem I can see with people who are fairly new to off-piste being interested in the gear and carrying it is that it might give them a false sense of security and encourage them to take risks.
As most people have said, the key is to avoid getting into trouble in the first place but if I was caught in an avalanche I'd want all the group I was with to have the gear and to know how to use it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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snowball,
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What would you feel if you saw people get caught by an avalanche but couldn't locate them under the snow because you didn't have a transciever...
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We saw an avalanche take someone down a slope - some years ago - I can remember being stunned, and not really knowing what to do.
Luckily a) we were with a guide who did and b) the avalanche victim was not buried.
Of course a transciever will not protect you, all it can do is speed a search for a buried transceiver. So I don't feel any safer wearing it, but I will practise using it each winter before we ski, just in case.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| achilles wrote: |
| I was with a party where the guide started a slab avalanche and skied out of it. And I have been with a guy who was trapped in an avalanche and was rescued. |
I've also met a couple of people who've survived an avalanche.
But then again, you don't get to meet those who don't.
Both of them agree, it's better to avoid them than survive them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, good article, though if you are concerned with the question in hand you can mostly look at the last 1/3 of page 4 plus page 5.
The time that it takes to get someone out seems to be the critical factor. Mobile phones, interestingly, are mentioned as one cause of reduced rescue time, though immediate rescue by companions is by far your best chance. And the best chance of all is if there is something, however small visible on the surface - so don't neglect just looking, just because you have a transciever!
However the article does say early on:
"During the last 4 years, the mortality rate in total burials has significantly decreased. The reasons (successful use of rescue devices) for this positve evolution ....." (etc)
Yes, of course not getting into one in the first place is best, but does anyone here ski a slope, without a guide, if they have doubts about it's safety?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| How many lives have been saved by transceivers?........ |
Have a look here, Figure 12, for a start. |
Nice article achilles
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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When I first did avalanche training fifteen years ago we were told by our instructors (all UIAGM qualified) that most skiers die in small avalanches that they themselves trigger off.
To many people the word avalanche instinctively conjurs up visions of whole mountainsides sliding away and knocking out villages etc. which is occasionally the case as happened in La Tour and the Arlberg region some six or seven years ago. These accidents inevitably get considerable media attention and reinforce the perception about massive avalanches. There have also been a few TV programmes on avalanches and again they always seem to focus on the big ones with film footage to demonstrate. It makes better television.
So back to my main point. Many of the small avalanches that involve skiers and boarders on the mountain are potentially survivable using the techniques that have been repeated many times - try and ski out of it, try and roll, fight your way to the top, wear a tranceiver etc. We were also told that most skiers when buried are buried close to the surface so if the other members of the party know how to conduct a search and are properly equiped the victim has a chance.
Prevention is of course better than cure as with so many sporting activities and I am in no way trying to suggest that anyone should adopt a casual attitude to skiing off piste. Touch wood - I have never been involved in an avalanche myself.
Safety training, carrying the right equipment and knowing how to use it, is therefore definitely worth while in my view. With the smaller avalanches that skiers are probably most likely to get caught in at least you then have a better chance.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bode Swiller I started the thread on comfort - and nope - I just quite like my life and my kids, and fashion isn't that important. I have seen French skiers all but laugh at seeing me wearing a lid on-piste (might have been my skiing actually) a few years back, and as has been said ,all the avalanche gear is hidden. There are bits of macho boasting and gear-freakery by skiers, but I think this is one topic where we are just scared, and don't want to be left helpless/unable to help.
The "does it help" issue has been done to death already, and I suspect someone will suggest skiing with 300 yards of fluorescent taffeta and a beach-ball tied to the end very soon in this thread. However a lot of skiers I admire seem to think the gear is sensible. What do you do? If you are skiing above me without a transceiver please try not to set an avalanche off...
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Don't disagree with anything Bode Swiller has said about objective chances of surviving an avalanche & avoidance is obviously the best policy. However other threads are talking about preparing for the worst & having "all the gear" like wearing a helmet at least buys me or a companion a chance should the unexpected happen. If you take unfamiliarity with transceiver searches out of the equation at least its one thing you won't need to worry about in a stressful circumstance. I've met a number of seasonnaires who have an attitude that "all the gear" is for punters and becuase they ski the same area every day they don't need it.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| ...... I've met a number of seasonnaires who have an attitude that "all the gear" is for punters and becuase they ski the same area every day they don't need it. |
The next time you ski with a guide you might like to let him have that advice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The only 2 seasonnaires I've free-skied with were very ignorant about the risks they took so casually (for example skiing over many obvious crevasse lines without realising they were there).
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| achilles wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| ...... I've met a number of seasonnaires who have an attitude that "all the gear" is for punters and becuase they ski the same area every day they don't need it. |
The next time you ski with a guide you might like to let him have that advice. |
I'm not sure what your point is. I clearly stated it was not my view.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, sorry, mis-read you. 
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