 Poster: A snowHead
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The re-emergence of the wolf - formerly extinct - since 1992, is provoking confrontations between French sheep farmers and environmentalists.
The wolf is a protected species, but attacks on sheep grazing Alpine summer pastures have increased. It is reckoned that there are only 55 wolves in the French Alps, resulting from a migration from Italy, but it's estimated that 3000 sheep are killed by them each year.
Some sheep farmers are demanding a total cull. The government is permitting limited shooting, despite it being illegal under French law to kill wolves, provided the species is not threatened. Animal welfare groups, on the other hand, are demanding the full protection of wolves. They argue that the wolf co-existed with the human population of France for many centuries.
This report from The Independent.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A little exaggerated I reckon. Occasional stories of this nature have made the news in recent years in France, including a couple of documentaries I've seen, one which followed the 'bergers' and their enormous dogs around the mountains, filming the rare encounter with wolves (which would not go anywhere near a flock protected by dogs).
What sparked this particular headline-grabbing demonstration was the recent trial of a shepherd in the Hautes Alpes department for trapping and killing a wolf. He was fined 500 euros and had to pay 800 euros in legal costs, with a further payment of 2,000 euros should he re-offend during the probationary period. (He had not been entitled to compensation as he had taken no steps to protect his flock, losing 80 or so sheep in several attacks...)
The figure of 3,000 is inaccurate. The worst year, 2002, saw kills peak at around 2,000, with a considerable drop in 2003 as more shepherds took precautionary measures.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Some further thoughts... the American Indians call the wolf the "doctor of the forest". It preys on sick and injured animals first. And to put the wolf kill figures mentioned above in perspective, which amount to approximately 1,500 sheep kills each year in France (and are on the decrease), a lesser known fact is that stray dogs in France kill 150,000 sheep each year! (there's even one account that placed this estimate a lot higher:, François Moutou, in "Le retour du loup en France", Gazette de la Meute n°18, winter 1998/1999, places the figure at nearer to 500,000 kills, ie some 5% of the total headcount of French sheep each year).
That aside the farmers are also protesting about other elements of government policy. The subsidies are indiscriminately applied, and this penalises the farmer with smaller flocks - obviously protection costs are proportionately higher, the smaller the flock, with the result that the traditional 'paysan' (peasant) operations are being put under further pressure.
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It does appear to be an unfortunate trait of our species to lay the blame for problems at anyone's door other than our own - hence the mass culling of seal pups, blamed for reducing fish "stocks" (although I don't suppose anyone asked the fish if they wanted to be a "stock" - the arrogance of the human species never ceases to amaze), when over-fishing and human greed seem to be the prime suspects. Other depressing examples are the trade in "bushmeat" (another human trait, never call a spade a spade if it might upset someone's delicate sensibility) in parts of Africa, and the slaughter of rare species for Chinese "medicines". The list goes on and on.....
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 11-07-04 22:27; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Poor old wolves - they are always villified, and for no very good reason apart from folklore. Gorillas seem to suffer the same fate - why? 
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I'm with PG on this one, I fear dogs and irresponsible dog-owners are at fault. Sheep-worrying is a problem everywhere. Last year over here they even tried to blame 'big-cats' for attacking livestock, all sorts of stories circulating about pumas, jaguars etc. If owners control their pets and farmers take steps to protect their livliehoods there should be no problem.
LEAVE THE WOLVES ALONE!
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David Goldsmith, Mr Pedant is In (it's been one of those days).
extinct: adjective: no longer existing : lacking living representatives.
(Source: Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary.)
So just where did these wolves come from?
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You're quite right. Why didn't I write "Extinct in France?"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jonpim, they're mule wolves, so becoming extinct and then returning is not a problem for them 
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Easier to use the term extinction in a given island locality, less so when referring to France where the species continued to breed, if in small numbers, until the early 1940s. Even after 1945, when it was established that the last of the breeding pairs had disappeared, there were sporadic sightings in the Mercantour region (bordering Italy) until the mid seventies when wolves began to cross over from Italy in increasing numbers (at the same time as the wolf became a protected species in Italy).
Back in the early 19th century there are estimates of as many as 18,000 wolves, living in all regions of France.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And what about the last wolf in Scotland. Killed in 1743 according to legend.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kuwait_ian, I could swear I saw wolves in the Highland Wildlife Park in Kingussie - perhaps they were moving life-size models?
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easiski, [OT] I would never have thought it of you, a fair-weather skier?! You should be up on the glacier right now, braving the blizzards and freezing temperatures!!
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You know it makes sense.
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PG, It was rather pleasant today, but not a wolf in sight!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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A few years back, wolves were re-introduced into Yellowstone National Park in the USA (in the early days of the park wolves were deliberately shot in a misguided attempt to promote the more "cuddly" wildlife such as elk etc.). Initially there was understandably a lot of opposition to the wolf re-introduction from cattle ranchers with property adjacent to the park, however a compensation scheme was introduced which did a lot to placate the ranchers. In my view to win over ranchers/farmers etc. such compensation schemes should be generous i.e paying substantially more than the market rate of the dead animal.
The wolf is now firmly re-established in Yellowstone as the number 1 predator - as PG says it preys on sick and injured animals first. Wolves have had a "bad press" for generations through children's tales of the big bad wolf, but I believe there are few if any documented cases of wolves attacking people(has anyone any information on this?) - usually their natural instinct is to avoid humans.
I realise that the French Alps are not a National Park like Yellowstone, but surely there are sparsely populated areas where the "tolerance" of the wolf would not be too big a burden. Hearing the howl of a wolf on a cold winter's night must be awesome 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Alastair Pink, I believe a substantial proportion of the French Alps comprise national parks. As you've suggested, proper compensation to farmers is presumably the answer in this quest for bio-diversity.
Here's some data on the current grey wolf populations of European countries, published by 'Wolf Song of Alaska' and sourced from 'The Wolf Almanac / Robert H. Busch'.
The UK doesn't feature on that table with a 'zero'. Another part of the interesting Wolf Song of Alaska site points out why.
BTW, anyone know the distinction between grey wolves and other wolves? The French population of grey wolves is shown as 5, against 55 in the earlier report quoted. Are there 50 of other varieties of wolf, or is the 5 figure out-of-date?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The figure of 5 must be out of date. Otherwise that would imply some pretty greedy wolves last year, at over one sheep per day each, plus more 'natural' prey!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I side wit the wolves in this.
A problem that we're experiencing in Italy is with wild boars, they have no natural predator, thus are/were reproducing at an alarming ratio. To have wolves around should take care of that.
The Regions, especially the easternmost ones are also trying to reintroduce the Bear in the Italian Alps, with animals taken from SLowenia, just across theborder.
I also hope to see the Linx and the wild cat to roam again here, one day.
But governement should be wary of over compensating, that could lead to scams...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And anyway, the www.wolfsongalaska.org talks indifferently about gray woves and wolves, so, without being a zoologist, I can only draw that the Gray wolf is the main type of wolf, widespread in Europe and N.A. In the site one will be ablet o find referencies on Red wolves, mexican wolves and so forth
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The Swiss government has now revised its law, permitting the shooting of a wolf if it has killed more than 35 sheep (a reduction from the previous figure of 50) over a 4-month period.
This report from SwissInfo.
Any wolf would be well advised to make him/herself aware of this law.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I believe a substantial proportion of the French Alps comprise national parks. |
There are three national parks in the French Alps, the Mercantour, Ecrins and Vanoise. They actually cover a fairly small area of the Alps and are under threat due to a government reform under consideration.
There are currently no wolves in the Ecrins and I don't think they have penetrated far into the Vanoise. A friend of mine was investigating a sheep kill in the Ecrins over the weekend but it will be some time before the results, if any, are available. There was also a hunt for wolves at the Col de Ornon where peasants have reported sightings but with no positive results. Sheep farmers claim there are wolves in the Belledonne, Vercors and even as far as the Ardeche but there is limited evidence. Probably most attacks are from stray dogs but a wolf (or dog) attack can result in whole flocks falling over cliffs in their panic. Sheep farmers claim that sheep dogs, in particular the Patou, cannot be used as they risk lawsuits if walkers get bitten. Personally I think this is nonsense. The Americans have experimented with mixing Llamas with sheep flocks as this animal is very good at preventing dog attacks.
There was a fairly nasty protest by sheep farmers in Grenoble the other day. The protestors slit the throats of sheep in the town center and left the animals to bleed to death in fairly appauling conditions to be honest. This was supposed to demonstrate to townies what a sheep attack is like.
The sheep farmer's traditional way of life is probably not sustainable, at least not without large and increasing subsidies, something which is less and less acceptable given the over production of food in Europe. The wolf is caught up in what I would describe as a climate of hysteria amongst farmers whose existence is increasingly threatened by the 21st century. If sheep dissapear they will be replaced by other grazing animals but with an inevitable change to the mountain environment which has already changed out of all recognition over the last 50 years. I suppose it comes down to how much taxpayers in France and politicians have the will to preserve this way of life.
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A news update on this from Expatica.com.
The cull, which would have authorised the killing of four wolves (out of an official population of 39 in France) has been cancelled, due to a legal issue.
[News update 22 September 2004] A farmers' protest took place in Chambery today, demanding a resumption of the cull.
This report from Expatica.com
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 22-09-04 21:32; edited 1 time in total
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Australia is addressing a similar issue, but this time the political debate is about wild dogs on the Snowy Mountains, which include the country's leading ski resorts Thredbo and Perisher.
This report from ABC News Online.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 21-10-04 9:00; edited 1 time in total
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An update on the situation in the Snowy Mountains. 'Aerial baiting' - the dropping of poisoned meat - has recommenced after a six-year ban, to control the wild dog population.
Conservationists have objected, arguing that the meat will also kill native fauna.
This report from ABC News Online.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have a chalet on the edge of the Mercantour and all the locals I've spoken to about it are quite enthusiastic about wolves - although most of them doubt that they come anywhere near our area - as they're a good selling point to tourists.
The only person who claims to have seen a wolf there is a pisteur (sp.?) who reckons he came across one half way up a mountain in the dead of night while he (the pisteur, not the wolf) was grooming the piste. Most people treat this story with some scepticism.
The sheep farmers tend not to actually live in our area and just come up for the summer grazing.
There are plenty of chamois, ibex, moufflon etc. who don't seem to have been decimated by the wolves so the sheep just need to run a bit faster!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ben wright, sheep are known for being stupid though which is why they tend to get attacked by wild dogs and wolves, man has used selective brreding to ensure large wooly coats and plenty of meat, not speed of foot. 
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Ben, are they mouflon in your area? I thought the only place they still existed in the wild in france was in Corsica. I never seen on but as our chalet is called le Mouflon people give us photos of them, strange looking things but apparently the ancestors of all modern sheep.
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You know it makes sense.
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We've heard reports from locals here that 2 wolves were sighted along the col de Sarenne this summer, which led to the shepherds investing in 3 bloody enormous very scarry special wolf-chasing dogs (I don't remember the breed), but when you come face to face with one of those its serious contender for a 'brown trouser moment'!!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Ben, are they mouflon in your area?
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I'm pretty sure they are. Guides to the area claim that there are mouflon and I've come across things that looked like a barrel-chested goat but made a really sheep-like bleat. Just did a search for mouflon and the pictures of one sort (they seem to vary quite a bit) fit the bill.
Now I think about it, this Spring they were trying to round up volunteers for a mouflon count.
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not speed of foot.
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which some people find helpful for other reasons 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
The cull, which would have authorised the killing of four wolves (out of an official population of 39 in France) has been cancelled, due to a legal issue.
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A she-wolf was killed on the Drome side of the Vercors massif yesterday.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wolf news from across the Atlantic: another case of 'wolf management'. In this instance, two endangered Mexican gray wolves which had been deliberately released into the wild in Arizona have been recaptured, having "wandered too far".
[Maybe we need remote-controlled wolf robots.]
This report from News 5 in Phoenix, Arizona.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Another wolf was killed on the Taillefer the other day (near Grenoble) and hunters have shot a bear in the Pyrenees. The bear, a female with a 10 month old cub, was the last bear in the western French Pyrenees from original stock. Hunters have also recently shot a female jogger and a mountain biker - neither of which are currently facing extinction.
There were some fairly big and vocal demonstrations about the killing the the French govts laissez faire attitude last weekend in Lyon, Montpelier and Paris.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
The Americans have experimented with mixing Llamas with sheep flocks as this animal is very good at preventing dog attacks.
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We were in the Pyrenee's at the weekend, and one flock of sheep we came upon had a donkey guarding them! It certainly did the trick with my dog who found the donkey very intimidating!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davejsy, our dog met a donkey lving with some sheep and cows in the summer. She found the donkey far less intimidating than the cattle.
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There was a headline in a local paper I saw in Combloux a couple of weeks ago about wolf attacks. It was on a sign outside the shop, which was shut for lunch, so I never got to see the article.
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Those bally sheperds have to realise the predators are part of their jobs. Gone are the days when they could leave their flocks in the alpages totally unattended until the start of the winter. How many of them just left the flock to their own device for days on end ? Way too many. They are now facing the fact they have to attend to their animals and they do not like that. Moreover, the governement is paying way too much for a so called "sheep lost to predators". Wolves, bears, vultures and gypaetes are part of the French ecosystems and should be reintroduced fully and remain regardless.
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There was a rather good documentary about that on Montagne T. V a month or two ago. Might still be on their "replay" link.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The new winner in the "oldest thread re-visited" category....a full 8 years old!
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However long ago this thread was started I find it very interesting and it prompted me to re visit what I could find on the subject on the internet.
Its obviously a contentious subject.
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