 Poster: A snowHead
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Having never been to Europe myself, i am a little confused why French made skis use side edge angles like 1.5 and 2 degrees which give fairly ordinary edge hold on ice compared to Austrian and German brands of ski which have 3 or 4 degrees of side edge bevel and do hold and edge noticeably better on firm snow, surely it can't just be foam core in most French skis compared to the wood cored Austrian skis that allow them to hold an edge so much better.
France and Austria would get similar snow but why such differently designed skis.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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whitethorn, Atomic have a factory and recommended base angle of +1 from horizontal and and -3 from vertical leaving a net effective edge angle of 2º. But it is down to you to make your own mind up as you want, after all, these things are not set in high carbon steel 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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whitethorn, could it be that the Germanic brands are pushing a more "hardcore" ski image, while the French are looking to push an easier more forgiving ski?
I'm not sure, but I sense that the Germanic brands stress the race lead design features a little more than the French do.
Whatever skis I have, I just stick 1 and 2 on anyway. 
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Masque, I already knew that as i have been tuning skis for over 30 years for a living, I have skied Austrian skis with a 2 degree side edge and didn't think much of them, and Volkl with a 2 degree side edge bevel forget it. as for base bevel exceeding 1 degree, no thanks.
marc gledhill, So you would take a high performance Volkl ski with a 4 degree side edge bevel and bring it back to 2 degrees in every instance, do you not get ice over in Europe.
I agree the French skis are way more forgiving with only 2 degrees on Rossignol and Dynastar and 1.5 on most Salomon's, but i suspect now that Amer control Salomon things may change there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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whitethorn, in that extream - no.
However, I'd have thought that only the base angle changes the function of the ski - changing the time when the edge engages slightly - the side bevel just makes it sharper. To me, a 1 and 4 would grip well early in the day, but just loses it's sharpeness more quickly if it skids on the ice.
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whitethorn, Well they are Austrian. But as marc gledhill, points out, I doubt it's more than skiing technique that differentiates how a ski holds its edge in 99% of conditions. My Bataleon board has a shaped base so the base angle is well over 4º from horizontal, the edge angle itself is between 1.5 and 2º, it doesn't make any difference to edge hold even on ice, only the way I ride it does that.
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A 3 degree side angle (like on all Atomics) has plenty of upsides for skiers of all abilities, no downsides & the durability of the edge is not affected. As stated by skidoc on epic who was head tech & Director of Volkl's US race team for nine years. That's good enough for me.
One of the problems I often see is the inconsistent tune (ie the angles changing along the lenght of the edge) on new skis due to the disc cutting/polishing process they often use. Rossi being the worst I've seen & Atomic/Stockli being the best.
One of the main reasons many manufacturers use a shallow side angle is that they'd have to remove some sidewall from the ski to allow sufficient clearance to enable a 3 degree angle to be cut. This is too expensive & time consuming for them to do
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Masque, Not from my own experience as a professional ski tester for the Australian ski industry, i can easily tell the difference between 1,2 and 3 degrees of side edge bevel on identical high performance skis if the snow is firm like on a race course, base bevel affects me less so long as it is somewhere between half to 1 degree, but once it is over 1 degree the ski becomes hard work.
I was sponsored by Volkl many years ago, and found out then just what changing the side edge bevel does on firm snow, i generally prefer to ski Atomic, Blizzard and Fischer skis these days as well as Elan, and the 3 degree side edge bevel is great for our firm snow, we rarely get powder.
I get to test Rossignol, Dynastar and Salomon regularly, but have found they lesser edge bevel a problem and have always wondered why the French Skis don't use a 3 degree side edge bevel.
spyderjon, I agree the 3 degree has no downsides and plenty of upsides, i find i run a medium diamond file over my own skis every day with the file set in a file guide set to 3 degrees, and they stay as sharp as the day they left the factory all the time.
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Masque, I am not trying to suggest i am all that good as a skier, i think you would find given the opportunity, that any advanced / expert skier could tell the difference between different side edge bevels, once you get used to what each bevel normally feels like and how it makes a ski respond, that comes from years of experimenting with edge angles followed by on piste testing of those angles, which is what i do as part of my work. I have been around an awful long time in the industry.
spyderjon, You sound like you do a fair bit of tuning, do many of your customers get into edge angles and base patterns, polishing edges with Diamond files and the like, or because you get so much powder, does all that become irrelevant.
I would have thought on a website like this there would be quite a few tuning fanatics, and you would probably be the one supplying them the tools and advice.
What about industry demo days, surely there would be demo days of all ski brands for industry buyers, and wouldn't Wintersteiger and Montana come around and teach the virtues of edge angles and base patterns.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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spyderjon, That reminds me, I will place an order is a few weeks, got to get some spare cash up 
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| whitethorn wrote: |
| ......I would have thought on a website like this there would be quite a few tuning fanatics, ....... |
Nah, there's only me  .
It's hard to find any store in the UK that can do a decent grind at all let alone be able to specify a grind pattern. A number of stores I know of who say they offer a grind are actually just belt sanding  . In most shops a minimum wage kid will wack your skis through a machine set to either 1&1 or 1&2, leave the hanging burr on the edge & then detune the tips  . Basically the average recreational skier in the UK just blindly trusts that the ski manufacturer & local store have got it right, which is not always the case.
My tuning service USP is that all work (exc grinding) is done by hand to avoid the mostly awful machine tunes offered in stores, therfore most of my client's are pretty discerning & specify what they want. In addition my client's benefit from hot wax/scrape cleaning & the use of quality base prep & final coat wax etc. This coming season I expect that I'll probably do about 80 hand tunes for clients & I reckon that 80% of them will be 0.7/1 degree base & 3 degree side.
For my component sales & when doing tuning lessons I encourage the regular use (daily if the snow's hard) of progressive diamond stones (Moonflex diamond files are brilliant) on the side edge only to keep the edge sharp but without the wear associated with filing. I've found that the 'Edge Trick' tool is great for an end of day touch-up for folks who don't want to be messing with file guides etc. |
That is disheartening, you appear to be on the right track though, i always finish the tune by hand, but also have the luxury of stone grinders for both snowboards and skis, 2 separate machines, as i am yet to find a stone grinder that will do boards well and also do skis that are even half decent to ski on. I have tried all the different brands of Diamond stone as well and agree Moonflex are great, there are about 3 to 4 tuning centres over here that have the knowledge and also care enough to do the job right, the rest seem to employ techs who just want to get paid each week for turning up.
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You know it makes sense.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
Nah, there's only me .
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While I might not share spyderjon's enthusiasm for all things technical, I have more than a passing interest in these things. I normally ski 1 and 3 on my slalom and GS skis, although I might file the GS skis back to 1 and 4 before I head off to Tignes in November. I have noidea what my mid-fat skis are set to - whatever they were when they came out of the Volkl factory.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm thinking of buying skis this season - I was rather hoping that there might be a chance to have some ski maintenance learning sessions at the EOSB.
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Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, there was at this years by Ewan, so hopefully there will be on next years.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have 0.5/2 on my slalom skis and 1/2 on my other skis. I find that 3 side does dull quicker than 2 side, as I don't get a new pair free every year, and I start off with thin race edges anyway, I'll stick to 2 side!
For me, sharp from tip to tail (running surface), no detune.
But what's most interesting is that the skeptics on here don't believe that leg alignment of 2 or more degrees will make a difference, but will argue about 0.5 deg base angles.
edit: Re the first assertion about French/Austrian skis, factory bevels from the Tognar catalogue:
Atomic 1, 3
Blizzard 1, 2
Dynastar 1, 2
Elan 1, 1
Fischer .5-.7, 3
Head 1, 1
K2 .5-1, 1-3
Nordica .5, 2
Rossignol .5, .5
Salomon 1, 2
Stockli 0-.5, 1
Volant 1, 2
Volkl 1, 2
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 16-09-06 17:11; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| veeeight wrote: |
| ......But what's most interesting is that the skeptics on here don't believe that leg alignment of 2 or more degrees will make a difference, but will argue about 0.5 deg base angles. |
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| achilles wrote: |
| I'm thinking of buying skis this season - I was rather hoping that there might be a chance to have some ski maintenance learning sessions at <b>the <a href="http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=9948">EoSB</a></b>. |
I'm on the east side of Nottm which can't be far from you so if you pop over & I'll go through everything with you.
Alternatively I can offer a great DVD.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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veeeight, You my boy are playing with fire, just wait till SZK gets back to school 
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| spyderjon wrote: |
One of the problems I often see is the inconsistent tune (ie the angles changing along the lenght of the edge) on new skis due to the disc cutting/polishing process they often use. Rossi being the worst I've seen & Atomic/Stockli being the best.
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yeah... remember the stockli tune I hated? got them looked at back home when I put them in for a tune (skied them a day first just to be sure the tune was crap).... at some points they had nearly 6 degrees base bevel!!!
the stockli guys were surpised i had skied them (bad conditions quite icy first up) ... they stated they would consider them unskiable as they were! (well they were nearly)....
NEVER have your stocklis tuned at The Canyons!
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spyderjon, thanks. Better get on and buy the skis then!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 17-09-06 9:54; edited 1 time in total
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| veeeight wrote: |
I have 0.5/2 on my slalom skis and 1/2 on my other skis. I find that 3 side does dull quicker than 2 side, as I don't get a new pair free every year, and I start off with thin race edges anyway, I'll stick to 2 side!
For me, sharp from tip to tail (running surface), no detune.
But what's most interesting is that the skeptics on here don't believe that leg alignment of 2 or more degrees will make a difference, but will argue about 0.5 deg base angles.
edit: Re the first assertion about French/Austrian skis, factory bevels from the Tognar catalogue:
Atomic 1, 3
Blizzard 1, 2
Dynastar 1, 2
Elan 1, 1
Fischer .5-.7, 3
Head 1, 1
K2 .5-1, 1-3
Nordica .5, 2
Rossignol .5, .5
Salomon 1, 2
Stockli 0-.5, 1
Volant 1, 2
Volkl 1, 2 |
Yet another example of just how much misinformation is on that Tognar website, you would be better of not taking that site too seriously, as it is correct on so much, but also very very wrong on quite a lot also.
Stoeckli 1 degree side edge
Volant are owned and made by Atomic and have 3 degrees, Blizzard measure at 3 degrees, Elan measure at 3 degrees although some at the factory will tell you 2 degrees, some will tell you 3, Head will tell you 2, but quite a few measure at 3, Volkl are without any doubt 4 degrees, but now that they are owned by K2 and made in China, that may change.
Get a set of new skis and measure them yourself with your file guides, a texta and a diamond file, it is easy to do and is very accurate.
Base bevels are harder to control due to the way the factories do them, but most are between .5 and 1 degree at least Tognar got that part right.
You should sharpen tip to tail until razor sharp then you need to slightly detune tip and tail with something like Fibretex, but by detuning it should still feel sharp but not enough to cut paper, the rest of the edge should cut paper with no effort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| spyderjon wrote: |
One of the problems I often see is the inconsistent tune (ie the angles changing along the lenght of the edge) on new skis due to the disc cutting/polishing process they often use. Rossi being the worst I've seen & Atomic/Stockli being the best.
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yeah... remember the stockli tune I hated? got them looked at back home when I put them in for a tune (skied them a day first just to be sure the tune was crap).... at some points they had nearly 6 degrees base bevel!!!
the stockli guys were surpised i had skied them (bad conditions quite icy first up) ... they stated they would consider them unskiable as they were! (well they were nearly)....
NEVER have your stocklis tuned at The Canyons! |
You may find they put them over a Wintersteiger snowboard grinder, that will do it every time, for skis avoid Wintersteiger snowboard grinders, they are designed to base bevel a wide surface area snowboard to 1 degree, but they will base bevel a set of skis to 5 - 9 degrees almost everytime, that is why i have a grinder for skis and a separate one for boards.
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| whitethorn wrote: |
| ... there are about 3 to 4 tuning centres over here that have the knowledge and also care enough to do the job right, the rest seem to employ techs who just want to get paid each week for turning up. |
Where in Sydney and from whom can good hand tunes be obtained.
Alternatively where Sydney can I obtain FK/SKS tools and Moonflex stones etc to create my own hand tuning kit.
Thanks
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The tuners in Sydney are getting better, but if i lived in Sydney i would probably go to Larry Adler's, or better still wait till i got to Jindabyne and get Jindbyne sports to do the work.
The Sydney guys appear to have the opinion that side edge bevels don't matter and all skis should be set at 2 degrees, and what makes it worse is that quite a few of them use the one tuning centre to get the work done, even though they now know how to use their ceramic edge beveller, Larry Adler does his own.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As for tools i am not sure what shops stock those brands throughout Australia, you may just have to phone around, but get those brands if you can as they are the best by far.
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whitethorn, Did you ever meet Fred Forsyth who ran the Surefoot store in Jindabyne for a while, I lost contact a while back and it would be good to hear from him again 
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You know it makes sense.
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| whitethorn wrote: |
| .....Volkl are without any doubt 4 degrees, but now that they are owned by K2 and made in China, that may change..... |
Interesting. I've never seen a factory 4 degree edge on UK Volkls. My 03/04 model 5*'s & Deb's 03/04 Gamma's (ie both pre K2) were both 2 degrees from the factory.
I'm in the process of prepping brand new pairs of both AC4's & S5's & they're both 2 degrees out of the wrapper. Their side angle is spot on for the whole length but the base angle varies inconsistently between 0.5 to 1 along the length of all of the skis.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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veeeight, why did anyone ever want to detune in the first place? Never ever felt the benefit myself.
Can we please move this thread over to Epic where there are more people who can appreciate the fine technical points?
I find that edge bevel is significantly less correlated with my skiing pleasure than the colour of my ski pants. Anyone know where I can buy some orange ones?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Murdoch, Orange on orange is just pants, you need some new boots 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| whitethorn wrote: |
| .....Volkl are without any doubt 4 degrees, but now that they are owned by K2 and made in China, that may change..... |
Interesting. I've never seen a factory 4 degree edge on UK Volkls. My 03/04 model 5*'s & Deb's 03/04 Gamma's (ie both pre K2) were both 2 degrees from the factory.
I'm in the process of prepping brand new pairs of both AC4's & S5's & they're both 2 degrees out of the wrapper. Their side angle is spot on for the whole length but the base angle varies inconsistently between 0.5 to 1 along the length of all of the skis. |
I can't say i have measured all the different model Volkls as i don't see every model, but the ones i have had the opportunity to measure over the last 4 to 5 years have all been 4 degrees, but i suspect all the new ones will be 2 degrees as that is what K2 use.
The rumour has it that the new K2 motosports ski have gained a lot of performance from the acquisition of Volkl. Other shops in Australia who regularly measure Volkl edge angles have confirmed the 4 degree setting, maybe we get different stock.
I will try to get my hands on some of the made in China stock and check them out, did you find the base concave at all or is it dead flat all the way on the China made models.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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LARGEZOOKEEPER, and what would you recommend?
But back on the important subject of a gentleman's skiing attire, what I really, really want is a suit. Soft/hardshell hybrid for comfort and hard wear, breathable and waterproof, jacket cut like my Mountain Hardwear FTX Ultra, pants cut like my SOS jeans with a below knee pocket.
Importantly coloured like the classic blue/orange Mammut but in a more muted smoky orange and blue.
Any ideas who might stock such a marvellous wardrobe?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| whitethorn wrote: |
| .....did you find the base concave at all or is it dead flat all the way on the China made models. |
S5 is flat all the way & the AC4 has a slight bit of concavity (about 0.5mm in the middle) at the but the outer 15-18mm on either side is flat. On my B5's I've got about 0.75mm of concavity on the tips & a tad on the tails & they've been ground twice.
The sidewall on the S5 will easily take a 3 degree edge but I had to take a bit off the AC4's sidewall & backfile the top of the edge slightly to blend it back to give sufficient clearance for the new 3 degree edge & future tuning.
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ski, I've never done any base waxing for plastic racers so what's the current hot set-up?
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
LARGEZOOKEEPER, and what would you recommend?
But back on the important subject of a gentleman's skiing attire, what I really, really want is a suit. Soft/hardshell hybrid for comfort and hard wear, breathable and waterproof, jacket cut like my Mountain Hardwear FTX Ultra, pants cut like my SOS jeans with a below knee pocket.
Importantly coloured like the classic blue/orange Mammut but in a more muted smoky orange and blue.
Any ideas who might stock such a marvellous wardrobe? |
I know someone would probably make it for you....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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whitethorn, spyderjon, can confirm the side bevel on my AC3s are also 2 degrees - these are last years model so not sure where K2 fit in all this
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| little tiger wrote: |
whitethorn - you don't happen to be "minding" a set of skis of mine do you if so I think i just worked out who you are.... and the tunes your shop did on my skis were perfect! |
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FAQ
