 Poster: A snowHead
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In Austria, is M+S marking sufficient or is the mountain peak / snowflake a requirement? I've just bought a car with fairly new M+S tyres and the replacement cost is quite ridiculous.
Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@RedandWhiteFlachau, thank you, that's almost £800 saved! I found a website that conflicted itself on the same page so it's great to have the official site.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yes, good link, thanks. It clarifies the tread depth requirements which is useful. Now I’ve just got to decide whether the current 4.5mm will be enough to last the next 2 months plus a thousand miles to Austria - or splash out £5-600 on new ones!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I found conflicting info that said you needed snowflake/mountain symbol, not just m&s on so I've ditched my all-terrain tyres (m&s marked) for full winters.
To be fair you can spend as much as you want but mine were £70 a corner, decent reviews for them for a budget tyre, quieter than my knobbly tyre on road....let's just see how they last.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@andy n netty, Not sure how you can have "conflicting info" with the official government site.
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| @andy n netty, Not sure how you can have "conflicting info" with the official government site. |
This is why I don't bother posting too much, almost guaranteed a snarky reply!!!
Only passing on what I found when I was looking
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Never sure why this subject causes so much discussion here. Winter rated tyres must have a 3PMSF rating which is normally indicated by the mountain and snowflake symbol. This is an EU wide rating. M&S simply means mud & snow and there is no testing requirement but normally accompanies the 3PMSF symbol. Plenty of info on this around eg https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/advice/winter-tyres-guide/winter-tyre-markings.
Personally have gone over to Michelin Cross Climate 2, they are very good in snow, good all round tyre (eg in summer thunderstorms) and no need to faff around swapping tyres twice a year. I can see if you do high mileage it is likely to be more cost effective to have two sets but for normal mileage having one set makes more sense.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@andybomb1 If all you’ve got on the tyres is an ‘M&S’ symbol only, then the designation is effectively meaningless, other than they have a chunky tread. They don’t have a compound chemistry biased towards wet, cold and snow. They don’t have sipes that accelerate the tread warming process. They don't have a tread pattern that reduces aquaplaning. And they don’t have a tread pattern that holds snow for enhanced snow-on-snow traction. Unlike a 3PMSF designation, which means they tyre does have all these things. In most cases, winter and all-season tyres designated as 3PMSF with the three-peaks-and-snowflake symbol also carry an ‘M+S’ imprint as well, albeit the latter is meaningless and redundant:
So your M+S tyres are effectively summer tyres, in every respect other than a chunky tread. And like with summer tyres, you can drive to the Alps on them and hope that a set of chains in the boot will help when you hit snow and ice. I won’t repeat the regular discussion over whether this is going to be an effective strategy or not, and the risks of doing this versus the cost of all-season or winter tyres, as it’s been done to death.
All I would say is that if you encounter conditions like these, as we did crossing the Jura into Switzerland, then summer tyres with chains in your boot aren’t going to be much use. Because there’s basically nowhere to pull off and put them on before you hit snow on the road that’s thick enough to pose a serious driving hazard:
https://imgur.com/gallery/U4Vslij
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I've just bought a set of 4 wheels with Dunlop 3 peaks tyres on for £100.
They're not very attractive but they are great and have a decent tread on them.
It takes about 40 minutes To swap them over in preparation for a drive to the alps.
Plenty of people out there change vehicles and then find that their snow wheels dont fit and just want to sell them on.
Look on eBay and Facebook marketplace.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| LaForet wrote: |
@andybomb1 If all you’ve got on the tyres is an ‘M&S’ symbol only, then the designation is effectively meaningless, other than they have a chunky tread. They don’t have a compound chemistry biased towards wet, cold and snow. They don’t have sipes that accelerate the tread warming process. They don't have a tread pattern that reduces aquaplaning. And they don’t have a tread pattern that holds snow for enhanced snow-on-snow traction.
So your M+S tyres are effectively summer tyres |
Hard disagree. Plenty of M+S tires are excellent in wet, indeed some are the best in wet conditions. All season tires do have tread patterns that channel water away, and some of them are M+S rated, like the Michelins I just bought. This doesn't make them winter tires, but it doesn't make them summer tires either.
True summer tires are dangerous on cold wet roads; to group M+S rated tires in the same boat is simply incorrect.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@munich_irish, maybe it causes so much discussion because what you say is in conflict with the Austrian government site? Or are we misinterpreting it?
@LaForet, I'm planning and staying on the valley floor and for this year legal will be good enough. I've had CrossClimates on my previous car for the last 5 years and they're absolutely wonderful and I'll be fitting similar as and when the need arises. In 20 years I've needed snowchains once and that's when I was staying in a farmhouse up a lane with someone who wasn't prepared to walk for 5 minutes from a sensible parking spot.
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| andy n netty wrote: |
| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| @andy n netty, Not sure how you can have "conflicting info" with the official government site. |
This is why I don't bother posting too much, almost guaranteed a snarky reply!!!
Only passing on what I found when I was looking |
Thumbs up emoji (can’t find it on the list!)
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You know it makes sense.
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| LaForet wrote: |
@andybomb1 If all you’ve got on the tyres is an ‘M&S’ symbol only, then the designation is effectively meaningless, other than they have a chunky tread. They don’t have a compound chemistry biased towards wet, cold and snow. They don’t have sipes that accelerate the tread warming process. They don't have a tread pattern that reduces aquaplaning. And they don’t have a tread pattern that holds snow for enhanced snow-on-snow traction.
So your M+S tyres are effectively summer tyres |
Hard disagree. Plenty of M+S tires are excellent in wet, indeed some are the best in wet conditions. All season tires do have tread patterns that channel water away, and some of them are M+S rated, like the Michelins I just bought. This doesn't make them winter tires, but it doesn't make them summer tires either.
True summer tires are dangerous on cold wet roads; to group M+S rated tires in the same boat is simply incorrect. |
Agree with you SnS, a ludicrous statement that recognises nothing in how the tires differ.
M+S type tire has long been a recommended/directed tire for years in many European countries for just these mixed and cold conditions. They pre~date any 3PMS specifications by a long way too, as far as I'm aware.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| LaForet wrote: |
@andybomb1 If all you’ve got on the tyres is an ‘M&S’ symbol only, then the designation is effectively meaningless, other than they have a chunky tread. They don’t have a compound chemistry biased towards wet, cold and snow. They don’t have sipes that accelerate the tread warming process. They don't have a tread pattern that reduces aquaplaning. And they don’t have a tread pattern that holds snow for enhanced snow-on-snow traction. Unlike a 3PMSF designation, which means they tyre does have all these things. In most cases, winter and all-season tyres designated as 3PMSF with the three-peaks-and-snowflake symbol also carry an ‘M+S’ imprint as well, albeit the latter is meaningless and redundant:
So your M+S tyres are effectively summer tyres, in every respect other than a chunky tread. And like with summer tyres, you can drive to the Alps on them and hope that a set of chains in the boot will help when you hit snow and ice. I won’t repeat the regular discussion over whether this is going to be an effective strategy or not, and the risks of doing this versus the cost of all-season or winter tyres, as it’s been done to death.
All I would say is that if you encounter conditions like these, as we did crossing the Jura into Switzerland, then summer tyres with chains in your boot aren’t going to be much use. Because there’s basically nowhere to pull off and put them on before you hit snow on the road that’s thick enough to pose a serious driving hazard:
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Quoting from that Austrian government website posted upthread:
Cars and lorries with a maximum permitted total (laden) weight of up to 3.5 t can only be used in wintry conditions between 1 November and 15 April if winter tyres are fitted to all their wheels. Examples of wintry conditions include snow, sludge or ice on the road.
For a tyre to qualify as a winter tyre, it must carry the labels "M+S", "M.S." or "M&S", or a snowflake symbol (which may appear with or without the other labels). Accordingly, all-weather and all-year-round tyres are only suitable for use as winter tyres if they carry one of these labels.
Clearly an "M+S" tyre is sufficient to qualify as a "winter tyre" in Austria.
Would I drive in winter in Austria with only an M+S tyre, with no snowflake etc, no I wouldn't, but that's just from my own safety paranoia with a young kid in the car.
I think if you just had M+S only tyres, there may be some quibles by your insurance company if an accident occured. I think they'd make it as hard for you as possible to make a claim.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This is the latest winter tyre regs for Germany
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The German regulation doesn’t indicate a minimal temperature or a determined period when the vehicles shall be fitted with winter tires. Drivers must adapt the tires to the weather conditions. Winter tires are mandatory in case of black ice, packed snow, slush, glaze and slippery frost.
Winter tires must have at least 1,6 mm tread depth. They have to be installed on all 4 wheels. For motorbikes winter tires are not mandatory.
Since January 1, 2018, there has been a legal obligation to label new winter tires with the alpine symbol (mountain and snowflake). Winter tires that are only marked with the M+S symbol may no longer be used in winter road conditions from October 1, 2024. Winter tires that bear both the M+S symbol and the Alpine symbol are still permitted.
All-year-round-tires carrying the alpine symbol are considered as winter tires and are allowed to be used. All-weather tires with only the M+S symbol may no longer be driven in winter weather conditions from October 1, 2024. All-weather tires with the M+S symbol and the Alpine symbol are still permitted.
If you are in breach of the law, not only the owner but also the driver will be fined. The fine for the driver is from 60 up to 120 € and 1 point in the German driving ability register FAER, depending on the type of the offence. The fine for the owner is 75 € and 1 point in the registry.
If you do not use appropriate tires: You might encounter problems with your insurance company in case of an accident caused by a third person or by your fault.
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ie M&S is not sufficient for driving in winter conditions in Germany as of this autumn. As noted in the Michelin link above (and easily found elsewhere) the M&S symbol is largely meaningless as there is no recognised standard, it might have been used for many years but has been superseded by 3PMSF. This is true now of mountain departments in France
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The following types of winter equipment are allowed:
Four winter tyres "3PMSF" and/or "M.S"/"M+S"/"M&S". From 1st November 2024 on, winter tyres must be certified "3PMSF" AND "M.S"/"M+S"/"M&S"
Four "all-season" tyres with "3PMSF" certificate
Removable anti-skid devices such as chains or socks that can be fitted to at least the two driven wheels |
but apparently no requirement for winter tyres in Switzerland so if you are so inclined you can go via France (avoiding mountains) and Switzerland and take your chances with the Austrian police
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A quote from @DB's, link which explains the confusion here
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| Of course this is only relevant to those in Austria who may drive through Germany. In Austria tyres only with "M+S" are still legal. However if your tyres don't also show the mountain/snowflake symbol it indicates one of two things: either the tyres date from before 2018 in which case they are dangerously old and should be changed, or the manufacturer has put "M+S" on tyres which are not winter tyres. This is not illegal since "M+S" is not protectable. This explains the move to the copyrighted pictogram. |
So no need for anyone to get hot under the collar and make sure you buy tyres from a reputable source!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Scooter in Seattle, I think we share the same taste in cars  , and I was pretty dissapointed when I realised that the all weather tyres that were fitted as original equipment lacked the all important "3 Peaks".
I'm driving to the Dolimites an January so I've bought myself a set of second hand winter tyres. It does mean I'm going to have to take them to my friendly tame tyre fitter to shoe the horse.
I'll have to get him to check them out before we put them on.
This is the first time I've taken "The Tank" to Europe in winter. I'm really looking forward to the drive.
If I make a habbit of this I'll have to get a set of wheels and treat myself to some brand new tyres.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@DrLawn, I went to a tyre supplier and asked them to change the tyres and they said they will only fit tyres they supplied and then when I mentioned they had supplied them they said they would only fit new tyres. I did find another tyre fitter but it was a lot of money (£15 per tyre).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@johnE, pretty standard price I'd say
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 11-11-24 9:33; edited 1 time in total
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@DrLawn, I remember, and the Michelins (Latitudes) I just got are OEM type tires. They are all season, M+S but no 3 peaks designation as you noted. I ran my winters through the summer just to get the last few miles out of 'em. They were fine, they just wear out fast.
I can't speak for the Isles, but over here there are plenty of places that will take $125 off ya to do a seasonal swap, and both ends of it are with used tires bought anywhere--as long as there is legal remaining tread depth.
Have a gas with your steed, I'm jealous. Passo Gardena awaits!
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I used to work for Pirelli, so I would claim some authority about the difference between M+S tyres and 3PMSF, which I explained in my post. Take my advice or leave it, as you see fit. I’ve not got anything against M+S tyres, just that all you can assume about them for winter Alpine driving is that they’re equivalent to summers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| LaForet wrote: |
| I used to work for Pirelli, so I would claim some authority about the difference between M+S tyres and 3PMSF, which I explained in my post. Take my advice or leave it, as you see fit. I’ve not got anything against M+S tyres, just that all you can assume about them for winter Alpine driving is that they’re equivalent to summers. |
I don't know a lot about their tyres, but I do miss the calendars 
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Regarding the Swiss: you can drive on any tyre you like! If you have an accident in wintry conditions it's your FAULT, the vehicle was not fit for the conditions! Assuming the tyres were standard.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@andybomb1, What munich_irish said, actually. From this season (Oct. 1st) onwards M+S don't count as winter tyres any more in Germany. Winter tyres, 3PMSF that is, are mandatory in winterly conditions. So if you plan drive through between now and let's say at least mid march, I'd highly recommend such tyres.
Idea: Get four 3PMFS all-seasons on cheap wheels and use them during winter. Once the M+S are worn out, you may either get proper summer tyres or switch to 3PMFS completely.
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FAQ
) in the car.
