Is the French ESF actually that bad ? Or just a myth

A snowHead

Whilst involved on another thread I read a post saying they’d been to La Rosiere with the kids 4 times and Bizarrely the ESF was very good , why Bizarrely ? They obviously did the job right for those 4 occasions . Sort of gave me the hump and felt very unfair as I’ve only ever had great experiences with the Sainte Foy ESF with my kids over 12yrs and equally in the Les Arcs early days myself many many years ago .

There’s always going to be a few bad occasions but I suspect this is mostly the child being too tired , to bed late , rather than the teaching .

It surely doesn’t all change when an instructor leaves the ESF to join an independent business remember most of them graduated from the ESF .

The ones I know take great pride in their jobs .

Is it really a bit of a Myth spread at the school gates and dinner party circuit, or have I just been lucky ?

A snowHead

la Rosiere ESF used to be run by a British instructor.

Most French instructors go through the French ENSA system, they don't "graduate" from the ESF even if they initially work and train there.

The ENSA system is very good - at least if you read the manuals it is very extensive covering a lot of areas. Coupled with the fact they take the best skiers who have been skiing and probably in the club system since childhood it should make for experts. However taking large groups of kids in a line all day is maybe not what they aspired to? The French also tend to leave their kids in ski school all day so maybe half day Brits fall behind during the week?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I don’t think it’s necessarily the standard of teaching that irks people with ESF. Yes, there were some of the very old who had little training other than being born in the village that weren’t good. But I think the rep is more to do with their collective belief that there should be no competition, especially from foreigners (ie anybody not from the valley). This still pervades today from direct harassment to snide remarks.

Additionally, a lot of French clientele just want to be shown around the mountain and to a decent lunch-spot. A lot different from the I want to learn culture that a lot of Brits have.

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Brits do like to bash the French, so maybe that's it. I've never had experience of them so not sure how their style differs. You do often see giant groups following ESF instructors though, and that's got to dilute the benefit to some degree.

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I'd be diplomatic and say that ESF are very good at doing what ESF do - Taking groups of people and turning most of them into adequate skiers, and dispensing those sweet sweet badges to kids. Both of my kids have spent time with ESF at some point or another, and while they both progressed and enjoyed their experience, I would say that the times they'd had under ESF have maybe not been as productive as those with other ski schools.

Hhhhhowever... when it comes to snowboarding. Hmm. Well. I have heard too much about ESFs attitude towards snowboarding and seen their teaching styles in practice to consider them inferior to probably anyone else. While I'm sure there are probably some very good instructors who care about the sport; the ESF techniques seem stuck in the early 90s, and it always feels like a very tacked on offering.

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Never used them but from what I've read over the years on here:

Franchise model so does vary from place to place - heard the Ste Foy one was/is good.

As davidof/chocks say can be a cultural thing. TBH, there are plenty of people who dislike the French/France in it's entirety because of the customer service, protectionism, bureaucracy, apres, etc. And ESF probably carries some of that.

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I think the bad rep has a couple of causes, mostly historical. There was certainly a time 25 or 30 years ago (when I started skiing) when a large proportion of older ESF instructors had acquired grandfather rights, i.e. they never had to properly qualify, and a few of them were definitely shíte. In addition, they were slow to adapt their teaching to carving methods, so there was a point at which they were still teaching stuff which was completely irrelevant and often counter-productive for the skis most people were then learning on, as well as giving an inconsistent, apparently conflicting message from different individual instructors or ski schools.

Coupled with their frequent use of Stagiaires (~trainees) for teaching over-large kids groups, which still goes on, and you understand why some people had and may continue to have a poor impression of them.

These days, apart from the kids' group thing, which I deplore, I think their instructors are every bit as good as anybody elses'.

After all it is free

I've lost count the number of times I have stopped to help a very young child in an ESF group that had fallen over and just left to fend for themselves.

My impression is that because the ESF is the largest ski school in French resorts they tend to operate to a system which makes them less flexible than their smaller competition. But in the end we have found there are instructors we click with, and others with whom we find less rapport, in any ski school. That's just life, and you will probably advance more with ones you find easiest to get on with.

But back to the OP it is the case that our daughter's skiing skills are substantially due to one instructor in La Rosiere. I don't know whether that reflects the quality of the whole ESF operation there though, or just the individual.

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My experience is quite old , we used them from time to time for the children. Personally I certainly didn't think the individual instructors were better or worse than any other ski school but the numbers in the groups were at times too large for much instruction. When used for privates there were some excellent instructors.

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My kids hated ESF lessons and got nothing from them. Just said instructors shouted and ranted at them and made nothing fun. Used various other schools after that and kids happy in all of them, with good progress; kind, friendly teachers and a whole lot more fun. Tried ESF for ref in La Rosiere, Les Arcs and Les Contamines.

However, all of this was a few years ago now, so may no longer that relevant. My kids had biggest problems at La Rosiere. That school had sold me a package with morning ski lessons, lunch and then fun alternative things in the afternoon, such as tobogganing etc. When they went in the afternoon sessions (they were age 6 and 11) they were put in a drab classroom place and offered colouring in ! On complaining I was told the fun activities were in the morning and you didn't get to do that if you had ski lessons. So I didn't make them go back after day one. ESF refused to refund the afternoon extras, even though it was their advert (I showed them the proof) that claimed these extras would be what the kids got to do. They blamed the people that ran the afternoon club, who were a different business. The afternoon club wouldn't refund, as they said I bought from ESF and it was the ESF ad that was wrong ! OOOOH I had put all this behind me years ago and now it has all come back to me and I want to massage the faces of the people involved with my fists again - but that wold be naughty!

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The ESF is large and variable depending on the local ski school, your specific instructor, and what sort of tuition you’re looking for. But I find the same with other ski schools - I’ve had poor experiences with some very well reviewed schools and even personal recommendations. Not everyone is looking for the same thing.

Mini_mg started with ESF (Ardent) and stuck with them all the way up to gold star, at various resorts - her choice, for the last 2-3 years even though she was offered the option of going elsewhere. She was 13 at that point. Since then, she's done one week with Evo2 in La Rosiere (ok, but looking back, not the right sort of skiing for her so not the best experience) plus various private lessons either with ski star instructors in Sweden/Norway (mixed bag but mostly decent) or SHs favourites (much better). I wouldn't say she has suffered from going through the ESF system; I do think she could have become a better skier if she had had private lessons from the outset but equally she might have lost interest because it wasn't really fun.

I do think that one problem some British kids and parents have with ESF is a cultural one. Particularly at the higher levels, the kids have to pass the test on the last day, to get their badge. They can ski brilliantly all week, then mess up in the test and therefore not be awarded the level they have trained for. The other aspect is the expectation of self sufficiency - the instructors are not necessarily expected to spend lots of time coddling kids who are upset because they've fallen over whilst trying something they find hard. Both of these attitudes may not align with parents expectations. The balance of supporting the timid ones vs pushing the able/braver kids is difficult and the sweet spot will vary from person to person.

You know it makes sense.

I think it’s a bit of a tired trope reinforced by a teaching style that doesn’t pander well to some parents. I’ve seen Brit parents from the same class where one thought it was excellent, and the other was shouting at the instructor for some perceived failing. One common theme is that they expect the kids to learn to pick themselves up off the ground.

My kids learned with a mixture of ESF private and ESF group, which they loved both of. They tried Evolution 2 a couple of times but found it disappointing- nice instructors, but much less skiing and a lot more break time, which seemed to appeal to the Brit clientele.

The ESF model produces some phenomenal skiers - anyone who thinks it just gets you to an adequate level should enter a flèche against a classe competition of 12yr olds.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I agree attitude/culture of the ESF instructors that is the point of difference with other ski schools.

This view is only based on my personal experiences and does not reflect my experiences with French instructors in other ski schools (Eco 2, Oxygen, UCPA etc.) who have often been really patient, motivating and kind.

The ESF approach is, in my limited experience, motivation by strictness rather than positivity and encouragement. The works for some children that will thrive in that kind of sink or swim environment. This isn't a good fit for my son though. My son calls ESF "the reds" and is not a big fan of them to put it mildly.

We have had some experiences with ESF on two separate trips when my son was age 4 which resulted in him wanting to never skin again. As soon as we took him out of the ESF lessons he returned to loving skiing. We used other French ski schools on subsequent trips and he was always very happy.

I won't be specific about what happened with my son because it would not be fair given ESF don't have a right of reply.

I suspect that he'd have been ok in ESF lessons had he been a bit older when he started off.

My son typically has private lessons now although he does UCPA group lessons when we go there.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I will echo @Richard Sideways comments above, regarding ESF snowboarding. I experienced some awful instruction from ESF "surfeurs" when I was learning, and saw that my kids did not get very good instruction some 15-20 years later. I did have some helpful sessions with a good ESF board instructor in Courchevel, but he was very much an outlier (and seed to give the impression that he wasn't 'one of the gang' there, despite trying to fit in).

On the skiing side, however... We have had good-to-mixed experience of group lessons and private instructors. On the whole, I felt the kids and my wife did better once we had switched to ProsNeige in Val Thorens but they have got the basics sorted thanks to ESF.

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I think the advent of independent ski schools beginning with Top Ski in Val d'Isere helped changed things.

They were more innovative in their offerings and I think this made the ESF realise that they had to up their game somewhat.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Perhaps (almost certainly) it's an output of my own aging but I see far fewer of the wrinkled walnut bum-clenched "follow me" ESF instructors out there these days and far more younger more dynamic ESF instructors skiing in a modern "freeridey" style or proper ripping on piste. But I also think that why would a young "top" instructor join ESF with all its legacy rather than being more progressive with an indie school.

Guess it maybe comes down to dependable hours throughout the season and the default of nannying kids groups.

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@Dave of the Marmottes, in many places ESF is rather the default and there aren't any indie's capable of running a "training" school, I think.

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We’ve never had any issues with ESF, even though our kids hardly spoke any English. That said, I have to admit that in Les Menuires, the group sizes were around 10-12 kids, whereas in Chamrousse, Flaine, and La Plagne, the groups were smaller—about 7-8 kids. I think it really varies from place to place.

Our worst experiences have been with ski schools in Austria, despite there being no language barrier. The most terrifying instructor (constantly yelling) was actually in Saas Fee.

After all it is free

Our experience is generally positive. When I started I had one week of ESF instruction and it was pretty good. Jnr has had much more and apart from one experience* he enjoyed his time with ESF.

*The one bad experience was when he was in the snow garden type thing and a battleaxe of an instructor wouldn't let him go to the toilet even though they were near one. He subsequently wet himself. It was fun trying to get his bootliner dry in time for the next day when the boot warmers in our hotel weren't great. We went to talk to ESF the following day and the instructor wasn't there (and didn't appear back all week). He had a great time the rest of the week.

A school friend of my son's was abandonned on the slopes by an ESF group when she was about 12.

She was found by her mum in a bar in resort being chatted up by some local blokes and seemed very pleased with herself. To give you the picture the friend looked a bit like:

and the bar guys like:

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That used to be the old ESF mantra - "Beware Beware of Fast Pierre! Don't let him in your underwear!"

back in the day of course... when all instructors were fully versed in the alpine courting ritual of Ski Ballet.

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@Richard_Sideways, haha I bumped into an ESF chum, who always seems to be with attractive widows, often in the trees, in a bar one evening and he was quite distressed having (apparently) pulled and made the classic late season mistake of going out in a pair of “slips d’entre-saison”

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I asked my son, who has had a lot more contact with the EsF than me, what he thought of them.

But none of it is printable.

You know it makes sense.

Kid's have taken lessons with ESF in many different ski resorts at many different levels and we've never once had an issue. I don't understand where the hate for the ESF comes from.
I wouldn't use them for Snowboarding lessons. In my experience they're not pure snowboarders rather those that transitioned to using both two and a single plank. Always look for a snowboard specific school

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

My kids have gone through all the various stages with ESF, and have enjoyed all of it. They now go in the teenager-free ski camps they offer, and love those too. I can only speak for EFF in Arc 1600 though.

A snowHead

I'd guess overall ESF are little better or little worse than anyone else, the difference is the size of the brand. On the swings for many people skiing means France and ski school in France means ESF. On the roundabouts that means 10 people with bad ski school experiences in France likely means 10 negative comments about "ESF". You don't have that national brand thing in many other Alpine countries so while you might also get 10 people with bad ski school experiences they are from 10 differently named ski schools so seen as 10 separate "1 person had a bad experience" stories.

A snowHead

Our kids, now 8 and 10, went through ESF system since they were 3 yo. We went to different resorts (Les Sybelles, L2A, Serre Chevalier, Flaine) and mostly had very good experience.

It happened to us once that the (older) instructor was complaining about my son being too independent. He said he couldn't work with such kid and moved him to another group that was lead by a younger and more patient instructor. That week he went from the 1st to the 3rd star.

The only time I felt they were wasting time with ESF was in Flaine. I had impression that they didn't improve at all after that week.

In all other cases, I could see clear improvements after a week with ESF, including competition courses.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Both our kids have gone through the ESF system at Samoens. They both started when they were 2.5yrs old, and both now race for the local ski club supported by ESF Samoens. I get it that it's different strokes for different folks, and I guess we are lucky that both cost centres like the carrot and stick approach employed by ESF. I also use ESF - I have friends that are teachers there for their off-piste groups and can only sing them praises too. What has also helped is our view point that skiing is a privilege - you put in the hard work with the school and it will be rewarded because you would be able to do things like the stuff you see on YouTube...

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

My daughter went in different ESF schools since she was 20 months. From Praz de Lys, Avoriaz, Montgenevre, Tignes, Les Arcs and she is now at 13 years old part of ESF Belle Plagne Racing Team for the last 3 seasons. We found everytime instructors taking care of child even went they had to manage groups of +10 kids. Always trying to adapt to kids level.
What's also very important is because of the size of ESF schools, they can manage to organise group depending of the level more easily than smaller schools.
My wife and myself took a week long group lesson 2 seasons ago. We were 3 groupe at adult level 3/4 and the 3 groups didn't had the same program because of the way the group was built not because of the instructor.

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When my son was 6, I signed him up to ESF in Tignes.
There were 13 kids in the class, the instructor barked something in French and departed up the drag lift, descended and joined it again. When he joined the drag for a 2nd time, there were still 4 of his class standing waiting at the bottom, starting to look worried. He seemed entirely oblivious.
I retrieved my son (who was one of the 4). The instructor didn't care - I'm not entirely sure he even noticed.
The girl in the office said, "Well he is old. Maybe he is not so good with children."
"So why did you give him 13 of them?"

Some fairly experienced friends of mine booked an ESF instructor for a 'tune up'. The office chose not to believe their (obviously delusional, being British) self assessment of their ability and gave them a stagiere, who didn't actually ski as well as them.

We've had fully qualified independent instructors threatened and spat at by ESF instructors in Val Thorens for having the temerity to use the race piste, which had been booked for us by an independent ski school in town. On another occasion, to make a point, they set a course so that their skiers' path would cross ours.

I've been told (although I've not verified) that if an ESF instructor is asked for by name, they get paid more, hence the good ones get booked up by past clients or as a result of personal recommendation, leaving the [relatively] rubbish ones for walk-ins and groups.
I also understand the ESF lobbied to have the law adjusted so only schools over a certain size could use stagieres (trainee instructors) to give them a competitive advantage. Of course, what this means is that, on average, you get lower qualified instructors from ESF than from independents.
Ski school snakes always seem to be longer with ESF.
Issues with ski-school snakes blocking a whole piste, preventing passing, always seem to be with ESF groups IME.

It's fair to say that some ESF instructors are excellent and some ESF branches are competent but it's definitely not a brand I trust.

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When my eldest daughter was 5, we put her in ESF lessons in Les Gets, along with my friend's son (6). They had skied before with us, so could hold a good snowplough already, but were basically ignored, as a scrum of kids made their way down a hill, with the instructors chatting to each other, seemingly unaware of what was going on. We sat and watched it, to see if it would improve, but it didn't. The kids had no idea what was going on and were just left there, so we went to the office and complained and they just gave us our money back, no questions asked. Since then, we've been to various resorts with our kids and in each resort have managed to find excellent ski schools, which all stipulate maximum numbers in the groups (usually six to eight). These have all been in France and they've all been genuinely brilliant. I've skied in many resorts, including in Italy and Austria on multiple occasions, we just happen to have only taken the kids to France.

I learned to ski with ESF, but that was back in the late 80s/early 90s, so there wasn't really much alternative back then and I was fine in lessons with them, but I was about 12 years old so was a bit more confident in understanding what I was meant to do. I know it's a stereotype to say it, but when I see a group of 12 kids following an ESF instructor, I can't help but feel a bit sorry for the kids. There are some very good alternatives out there though, so I see it as an ESF thing and not a French ski school thing.

These are obviously only my experiences though, so if others have had good experiences, that's great.

After all it is free

@admin, sounds like a similar but more polite version of my son's opinion. He has had a few disputes with "mountain professionals" - largely ESF and Ski Club (French) instructors and said that a number (but not all) are extremely arrogant and can't believe anyone who isn't local to resort can actually ski. He had one or two bad ESF instructors with school classes but agreed some of the ESF guys are extremely good at animating large school groups who are a tough crowd... and some of the good guys are not in the first flush either.

Two experiences only of ESF :

First, myself, husband and friend booked a guide/lesson for a day at Morzine March 1987. The guide was told quite clearly in French as well as English, that the day needed to be easy and relaxed as I was 3 months pregnant. By mid-morning I wanted to throttle the guy! Yes, he was right, I could absolutely do the skiing he wanted us to, but I was under doctors orders not to. He completely disregarded our wishes so much that I left the expedition.

Second, we booked our 3 kids into ski school at Avoriaz, late 1990`s . It was horrendous. The very young people in charge had no control over the groups, oldest 2 were involved in a fisticuffs and were collected with with bloody noses etc and they simply lost our youngest from the nursery area twice without even noticing. I only knew because I`d stayed in the general vicinity and spotted him!

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We had very mixed experiences with ESF. The quality of learning and enjoyment level being very variable, depending on the instructor.

Therein lies the problem. A good organisation should have the structure, rules and oversight in place to assure an adequate service all the time, with excellent service from individual instructors sometimes.

ESF doesn’t do that, so it’s a failure of management and organisation. As highlighted by others, they attempt to operate a closed shop, or as close as you can get away with in EU law. Protectionism instead of striving to be the best.

The whole Simon Butler ski instruction saga in Megeve is a good example.

I eventually gave up on ESF, as many have done.

Help!!

Is the French ESF actually that bad ? Or just a myth

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