 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello, I wanted to start going off piste, maybe start a course, but I don’t know if I’m at level. I do the Carv app, where you have a ski iq,
The average skier on piste will be scoring around 100.
Intermediates will score between 110-125,
Experts between 125-140
Professionals 140+.
I have scored 136 on my best, and score around 125 when there are not people. Could I start maybe doing some off piste, and renting some non-carving skiis which allow me to go off piste? Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm not sure Carv has much relevance to off piste skiing.
How do you cope in soft snow or bumps? Have you ever tried side piste (just the first few metres outside the piste markers)?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, your carv score really is irrelevant in terms of skiing in general (speaking as someone who also uses carv). It really doesn't mean anything.
If you want to try off piste, try it. See how you get on. You'll probably find you need to change your technique vs piste skiing a bit, but just play around with it and have fun.
Of course the usual caveats around avalanche awareness/safety stand.
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@snoodymcflude I have gone a lot on bumpy side piste terrain, where it is hard to gain control. I only have racing skis, on soft snow I have tried but i found it impossible to turn, even with speed. How would I start, alone, taking it slowly step by step to harder off piste? Not sure how many ski lessons at resorts would have teachers doing off piste
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, Welcome to Snowheads.
Congratulations, you are nearly an expert on a good day.
Yes, you can go off piste or at least just down the side of it.
I think you mean by "off piste", ski in deep snow....
The technique is a bit different, little to do with that Carv stuff.
But there are loads of Youtube Videos out there to tell you how to do it.
Learning to deal with deep snow will improve your on piste technique as well.
Its good to learn new moves that you can pull out of the bag when you need them.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@DrLawn, thanks, I did mean to start going in deeper fresh snow, I would probably have to rent all mountain skis, or other thicker skis right? I haven’t taken a ski lesson in a few years are the teachers normally knowledgable of off piste skiing, and would be able to teach me and know the spots where to go?
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Even if you think "carv" means something, it's about edging, right? That's not really what you'll be doing off piste.
Sell the gadgets, practice skiing. When you're doing it right, it feels right.
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, where do you ski normally? Someone on here might be able to give you a good instructors name based on that, but generally, I would expect an instructor would be able to give you a decent lesson in skiing powder.
Renting all mountain/off piste skis will make it easier, as you'll get more float out of the ski vs a piste/carving ski. However, you'll also be able to ski powder on a piste ski too. In fact, as instructors, we have to do just that, on the same ski that we can evidence short turns and long carved turns too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| phil_w wrote: |
Even if you think "carv" means something, it's about edging, right? That's not really what you'll be doing off piste.
Sell the gadgets, practice skiing. When you're doing it right, it feels right. |
This
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@phil_w, After I started skiing again after two years, I started using carv, and it helped me way more than you can think. It detects the weight, where the foot goes, helped me more than any instructor has (where I ski the instructors aren’t very good). I went from skiing simple parallel from going fast carving nearly perfectly, and being able to do pretty vertical pistes, just in a matter of days. I will be selling it in fact, because it has helped me so much, and would like to try new forms of skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@swskier, thanks for the information, I understand a lot more now. I have changed where I have skid in the past years, (went from central Italy to northern Italy) but am planning be skiing in the east cost this coming season for just a few days. I’m sure I’ll find good instructors there. I didn’t know I could ski powder with carving skis, I must have been doing many things wrong. Would you recommend going with powder/all mountain skis, or carving skis when I really try skiing powder for the first time?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, make your life easier and use a ski designed for powder skiing. If it's a powder day, i'm not out on my GS or Slalom skis! (well sometimes I do, but majority of the time I don't!)
You'll find skiing in deeper snow you need to use a lot more leg rotation. Don't try and carve the ski like your on a nice pisted run. Also, it will be more tiring!!
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, you'd be best off finding an introductory course to off-piste skiing where you can get advice and training in both mountain safety and skiing technique.
When you book your next trip, let people on here know where you are heading and there will be someone that can suggest an instructor that you can join.
| phil_w wrote: |
| ... When you're doing it right, it feels right. |
That isn't always true of course... 
Ingrained bad habits can mean that doing it wrong feels right - and doing it right feels wrong.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, you mean "East Coast" US? Expect it to be very cold and don't expect powder ...
A course would be a good idea. Verbier is not so far from you I'm guessing? Several well regarded options there.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, Yeah I’m trying to find a good place up in Vermont, I’m not trying to expect some massive 7 foot powder runs, just some fresh snow where I can practice. The places I have read still have more snow then where I go in central Italy. Verbier is quite far, I am not thinking of going over in the alps this year
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Not sure how many ski lessons at resorts would have teachers doing off piste
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I only have experience in France, but if you book a private lesson to work on skiing off-piste, you will get an instructor who will be willing and able to do that. And, in my experience, also teach you a bit about reading terrain too, and advise you about things like loading of lee slopes. I imagine the same would be true in Italy. They might even help you up when you are floundering around having not done what you are told (or perhaps they only do that for women!).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@under a new name, Thanks
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, are you based in Europe or the US or elsewhere? If in Europe than Vermont would be an odd choice if the aim is to get into off piste skiing. It probably only makes much sense if you already live on the East Coast of the US or have some other reason for going there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rambotion, Im going for family in December, and wanted to make a quick ski trip. I’m there anyway
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Abruzzosnowenjoyer5 wrote: |
| @DrLawn, thanks, I did mean to start going in deeper fresh snow, I would probably have to rent all mountain skis, or other thicker skis right? I haven’t taken a ski lesson in a few years are the teachers normally knowledgable of off piste skiing, and would be able to teach me and know the spots where to go? |
Depends where you are, but you need to check your requirement in advance. In Switzerland the vast majority of ski instructors do not hold the full Swiss licence, the Patent, with most working instructors some level of qualification below that. As such they're not allowed, by law, to take you into certain defined types of terrain. That doesn't mean they can't teach you off-piste skills, just that you'll be closer to the piste on more gentle terrain. On top of that most ski schools will try to use their top, qualified instructors for any dedicated off-piste lessons, and many of the young guys won't have any experience of teaching those skills, so you need to be clear in advance exactly what you want. In France there's a much lower proportion of unqualified instructors, who are effectively trainees (stagiaires) and who, like the lower ones in CH, will tend to get assigned kids', group lessons, early phase, starting with kids' club and creche type stuff, but may be roped into proper on-piste lessons at busy times.
Other countries' rules and practices are vaguely similar, but in essence just check before you book. Booking a private lesson will generally get you an instructor who knows what they're doing and will be able to give you what you need.
It's important to realise that most of the techniques you need for deep snow can be taught and practiced on piste on groomed terrain, so a normal lesson for an off-piste novice such as yourself would be mostly focussing on this with just occasional forays into the edge piste, obviously depending on snow conditions.
As for the carv - yeah, I'm not even convinced of its value on piste but certainly using it as a yardstick for whether you're good enough to start venturing off piste is not a good idea. You are good enough to start venturing off piste. Anyone beyond a complete novice is good enough to _start_ venturing off piste.
Yeah, and you probably want a ~90mm underfoot ski. Shouldn't be too much of a transition from narrower ones but will give you a little bit of an advantage in softer snow.
EDIT: it's become apparent from later posts that you're probably in North America, so some of these Ski School rules may vary even more, but again, if you just specify what you're looking for you'll be fine. As others have said, Vermont would not be an obvious choice for this sort of thing, being mostly hard packed and icy, most of the time. I did once have the pleasure of skiing Killington with a good foot or more of fresh powder, but locals confirmed that this was a very rare occurrence indeed. Go West, young man! Whether that be Colorado or Western Canada, that's where you get the conditions that will help you improve.
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@Chaletbeauroc, unfortunately, I won’t he able to head west. I will just have to have my fingers crossed. The snow at a lot of Vermont resorts still seemed more than what I would get in central Italy. thanks for the info!
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, sadly for a few days skiing in Vermont you'll have to be very very lucky to experience fresh powder!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, OK, your hands are tied, location-wise, but that doesn't mean you can't start working on some of the skill you'll need.
There are a very few specific techniques needed only for off-piste skiing, but lots and lots which work very well on piste as well. For a start you need to realise that all modern skis are 'carving' skis and that much of the time when you're on ungroomed terrain you're still doing pretty much the same thing.
A few things you might work on for a start:
Edge control - much off piste terrain, particularly on the US East coast, is going to be hard, not very grippy, such that you may not always be able to dig the edge into it, so you need to get comfortable with a certain amount of sideways movement, something that, as I understand it, is anathema to the Carv concept. Practice side-slipping, using more or less edge angle to control the speed of descent, leaning your weight forward and backward to get a feel for how that engages the front and back of the ski and starts to turn you as you move in either direction. The exercise is often referred to as "Braquage" and has a host of useful applications; it's one I use a lot to try and address all sorts of problems in students.
Pole planting - many on-piste skiers are almost disdainful about pole usage, but on steep terrain it becomes a vital tool to help initiate and control jump turns, particularly on unpredictable snow.
Body movement - we don't emphasise the up-down movements as much in teaching skiing basics as we used to, but they're always there, and can be much more exaggerated for off-piste conditions, for instance using the up movement to clear your skis from the snow surface, using a very low stance on the traverse phase to enable you to properly place a pole downhill from your current position and then use it as a lever to help move the upper body upwards and a pivot to help steer round, then going low again as you land the turn, absorbing the pressure, using the low stance to enable you to get more or less angulation to control your edges, rinse and repeat.
Snowplough turns - yes, you thought they were just for beginners? Think again. Very useful in breakable crust to get one ski moving sideways across the snow surface in the classic snowplough shape, then bringing the other one round in a smooth movement to match the skis as you complete the turn.
These are some of the things I might work on in an off-piste introduction or preparation lesson. Some of them may be more obvious, some of them may need an external eye, i.e. an instructor, to get them right, but mastering them will put you in a much better place when you start to move into deeper snow and mixed terrain.
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, as someone who has skied with Carv and know other people who have used it my observations are that you must be a reasonably competent skier to have achieved a score of 136* which means you must have an inherent understanding of body position when it comes to skiing and therefore should be well suited to venturing off-piste without any issue.
Good skis will be a great advantage and how you handle it will very much depend on the snow pack you encounter, just remember speed is your friend 
* I know skiers who ski off-piste and only scored 120's, and I know that when I was using Carv I felt my off-piste skiing benefitted
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, as others have said, a wider ski will make life a bit easier in the soft stuff. A very good skier will be able to take any width ski off piste, but I'd say from about 85mm up would be preferable. I ski on a 106mm ski in pretty much all conditions except if I'm going to be on a solid piste all day.
I think off piste skiing needs better balance and a softer feel, the weight transfer from ski to ski should be more gradual and generally a bit more equal.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Agree with most of the above though I've no actual experience of Carv. Kinda interested in what my score might be on a good day but not enough to actual invest in and faff around with the stuff.
I do think you need to be a very good skier to take a race ski off piste and not be fairly compromised due to the stiffness of the things. Similarly in moguls.
But all offpiste is definitely not equal and I'd take any opportunity to get off trail in Vermont as a bonus rather than an expectation. Even out west there can be droughts and distinctly variable/sketchy conditions (ask anyone lucky enough to ski Whistler this February).
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You know it makes sense.
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@swskier, yeah I'm hard to capture on video when carving cos of the speed blur Not that I do much carving.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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For me, the main shock of venturing off-piste was the constantly changing conditions.
Within a few meters you could encounter different depths and types of snow, trees, rocks, cliffs, and a complete lack of choice of line to ski.
This requires an ability to ski super-dynamically which is not so essential on-piste.
Almost by definition, this is not teachable.
It only comes from time on snow.
I realised this in my 50s and since have tried to ski off-piste for at least 6 weeks a year.
I am now 64 and, unlike any other activity, I am now a better skier than I have ever been.
I am now at the stage where I can't understand why anyone would ever want to expose themselves to the dangers of skiing on-piste.
I am a total convert with a big grin on my face.
Try tree skiing in Canada, or powder in Japan, and you will never look back.....apart from being bankrupt....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
I think off piste skiing needs better balance and a softer feel, the weight transfer from ski to ski should be more gradual and generally a bit more equal. |
This.
@Abruzzosnowenjoyer5, I’m not going to even try to teach you off-piste skiing using a keyboard.
I’m only going to comment on the Vermont in December part:
1) snow condition: December is “early season”. So the possibility of off-piste being available isn’t very high. Much more likely, you’ll be skiing on man-made snow on piste. But then, you may get lucky. 
2) skis: unlike in Europe, American ski resorts don’t really have designation of “on” vs “off” piste (in North America, the terminology is “groomed” vs “ungroomed”) . As a result, average American skiers ski off-piste whenever the condition allows it. As such, hired skis are typically “All Mountain” skis except those for beginners. Just mention that’s what you want, “all mountain skis”.
3) lessons: This is a tough one. Private lessons in North America are typically quite expensive. Group lessons on the other hand, you’re playing the lottery as to the quality of the instructor. The best value for learning off-piste in Vermont would be “Mogul Camp”(*), which a few mountains runs. It’s pretty intensive instructions though, often 2 full days. You’re going to be totally knackered by the end of it. I know, you’re thinking of learning to ski powder. But if you can ski mogul, powder is easy!
4) Lift pass: if anyone think private lessons in North America are expensive, lift pass are even more so! So start researching on which mountain(s) you may contemplate skiing. And start looking for lift passes. A big chunk of Vermont ski resorts belongs to Vail Corp, day tickets are well over $100! But you can pre-purchase before December for a significant discount.
(*) I disagree with some here who said skiing powder requires different technique. I don’t know how ski schools in Europe teach piste skiing. But here in North America, there’s no differentiation between the “technique” of piste vs off-piste. We routinely take students off the side of the piste whenever condition allows. It’s the same “technique”, just need to be executed on variable conditions.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| abc wrote: |
| ... (*) I disagree with some here who said skiing powder requires different technique. ... . |
I don't think that's what was said, or at least it's not how I read it.
Someone here previously described a French ski club of "mountaineering" types who stuck to the back woods and from what I recall were "agricultural" skiers. At the other end there are the piste-only folk whose technique falls apart if the grooming isn't perfect. And then there are the "park stance" lot, who can get to the park in easy conditions, but whose stance doesn't survive deep snow.
Technique differences certainly exist. And not all subsets of ability cover all types of snow.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@phil_w, I was thinking of this:
| Abruzzosnowenjoyer5 wrote: |
| @snoodymcflude I have gone a lot on bumpy side piste terrain, where it is hard to gain control. I only have racing skis, on soft snow I have tried but i found it impossible to turn, even with speed. How would I start, alone, taking it slowly step by step to harder off piste? Not sure how many ski lessons at resorts would have teachers doing off piste |
And some of the responses seem to imply there’re different “technique” and/or equipment for soft snow.
What the OP needs is supervised practice, on the side of the piste, by a decent instructor, on how to properly execute universal “technique” on variable conditions. Bottom line, stay in balance even when the snow under feet changes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd say that you switch technique depending on snow conditions or even the pitch of the slope. In soft snow you don't stand on a ski or crank over to the edge in the same way you would on a groomed piste, that's different technique imo.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| I'd say that you switch technique depending on snow conditions or even the pitch of the slope. In soft snow you don't stand on a ski or crank over to the edge in the same way you would on a groomed piste, that's different technique imo. |
Some would consider that poor technique.
May get away with it, but only on smooth piste
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@abc, not necessarily different technique, just if you're using CARV inserts, you're focussed on getting the ski on as high an angle as possible, and that's not something you'll be trying to do in deep soft snow, there'll be a lot more leg rotation, a move you'd also do on piste, but not when trying to carve.
The OP is using the inserts, and it seems like that's what he's been focussing his skiing on, so it's important to point out that he'll need to use some different tools in his bag to ski deep soft snow.
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@abc, putting force in and being smooth are not mutually exclusive. If you bend a ski in powder like you do on hardpack then more power to you, but ever instructor I've ever had has talked about technique being different when it's soft or chopped up.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The 'tools in your toolbox' analogy is a good one here - for on-piste skiing, particularly if you're focussing on a specific area, which is what Carv seems to do, you need to be competent with a certain minimum number of tools. You can get a good IQ score by using just those tools and potentially feel that this is all you need to know.
Off-piste skiing, however, is best served by having a much wider set of tools available, nearly all of which are equally usable on piste, but many of them which are more or less essential for off piste could be considered optional for groomed snow.
It's not so much about an alternative technique per se, but using a wider range of techniques. Not different, just more.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Not different, just more. |
I suggest that in fact the Venn diagram of "tools" has a lot of stuff which isn't shared. The Carv thing is hardpack specific - or so the suppliers claim. But it's easy to come up with techniques which don't overlap, which are obviously those which rely on the characteristics of hardpack (it's, hard!) and powder (it's not)...
- When snowboarding trees you sink the tail to control speed through the turn. You cannot sink the tail in hardpack.
- In hardpack, snowboarders can "pedal" the board by taking one foot out and pushing on the snow with the other. In powder your foot just sinks so that technique doesn't work.
The word "technique" is doing too much work.
What usually happens initially with resort skiers is that they have bad habits which betray them in powder.
I'd expect US skiers to suffer less from that, because they don't have the split on/off piste thing you find in Europe.
However I think over-confidence pretty much evens that out.
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FAQ
