 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's sad that the Lecht appears to be struggling financially.
While I'm no fan at all of the way Cairngorm Mountain has been run over the last several years, and agree about the unfairness of CM receiving those magic carpets, it's not a good business model to overly rely on receiving diverted visitors from a rival business.
The Lecht has been pretty poor with its social media communication, opening anything other than "core" lifts, and diversifying its business model for a number of years. I would visit more often if I knew a decent number of lifts would be open when conditions were good. There's little point in putting out an update at e.g. 10am about the current day.
*All* the other Scottish ski areas need to look Glencoe to see how a ski centre should be run. It's a tough sector to operate in but there is so much right about what Glencoe is doing.
(Maybe sounds a bit harsh, but I've written it now!)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| denfinella wrote: |
It's sad that the Lecht appears to be struggling financially.
While I'm no fan at all of the way Cairngorm Mountain has been run over the last several years, and agree about the unfairness of CM receiving those magic carpets, it's not a good business model to overly rely on receiving diverted visitors from a rival business.
The Lecht has been pretty poor with its social media communication, opening anything other than "core" lifts, and diversifying its business model for a number of years. I would visit more often if I knew a decent number of lifts would be open when conditions were good. There's little point in putting out an update at e.g. 10am about the current day.
*All* the other Scottish ski areas need to look Glencoe to see how a ski centre should be run. It's a tough sector to operate in but there is so much right about what Glencoe is doing.
(Maybe sounds a bit harsh, but I've written it now!) |
I know what you mean - Glenshee was pretty crap when I visited back in January, with only a few lifts open. Too much wind for the chairlifts and even the drag lifts to go higher up, so really limited skiing. Plus in order to get to any of the centres, many folk need to leave at 8am or earlier, so it's not really practical to wait for the 9 or 10am social media update and pay for a day pass. Afternoons might be the way forward but snow cover has been so poor that it's best first thing.
While the Shee (up top a point) and Lecht do try and put out lift expectations for the next day, it's so dependent on weather (wind mainly) that it's hard to plan. And it costs me not much off £100 for the day (petrol, passes, lunch) for two that I'd rather save that and put to towards an extra weekend in the Alps...
Really sad that the Lecht is struggling again though - they're the friendliest ski centre. I rocked up one morning not long after I'd moved up this way and, while conditions were crap that morning, they opened a few lifts for no charge.
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I have good memories of skiing there - yes, based near Aviemore, in the days when you looked at 'Ceefax' on the TV and then drove around like crazy trying to find anywhere that was open!
I'd very happily go there still: but a longer drive up than Coe (and Shee), so do need to be sure in advance that they have cover and will be open, along with the road also being clear and open. The latter seems to be a particular issue with Glenshee & Lecht; the ability to open on any particular day, like all Scottish areas, is also a difficult one for those who don't live very nearby.
I recall being surprised this year to see on FB that they were at times saying that they were open when others weren't, and apparently had quite useable cover; but also annoyed that I hadn't known.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Grizzler, The Glenshee and Lecht roads are the two highest in Scotland.
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@rjs, Cockbridge-Tomintoul often closed
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@under a new name, yep, near Aviemore - also near Kingussie, if you prefer. (Was referring to the initial observations from HH about diverted traffic from Aviemore / Cairngorm Mountain.)
Idea being one could from there drive to Cairngorm to ski (or winter walk/climb), or else if that was closed it was easy enough to drive to Nevis Range, Lecht, even Shee and Coe: when desperate to get a slide in, we travelled to, and between, all. (In pre internet days of course.)
When every one closed, we went up to the coast instead.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The Lowther Hill road isn't public, like the Great Dun Fell road in England.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The Lecht Ski Company Ltd filed their accounts today up to 31.10.2023 - here they are https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC063713/filing-history
Without knowing the full ins and outs, I would say that a company with net assets of £1.67m 'should' be able to survive somehow without crowdfunding £35k. Their cash position has worsened, and best assume it has worsened further due to this season, but I would say they are a going concern still. I'm not saying it will be easy but they must have known bad seasons are possible, and getting more frequent, so a viable contingency plan would have been an idea perhaps?
The travesty of course is still the amount of money totally wasted at Cairngorm. A small fraction of that kind of investment in infrastructure would make all the difference at places like The Lecht.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| denfinella wrote: |
It's sad that the Lecht appears to be struggling financially.
While I'm no fan at all of the way Cairngorm Mountain has been run over the last several years, and agree about the unfairness of CM receiving those magic carpets, it's not a good business model to overly rely on receiving diverted visitors from a rival business.
The Lecht has been pretty poor with its social media communication, opening anything other than "core" lifts, and diversifying its business model for a number of years. I would visit more often if I knew a decent number of lifts would be open when conditions were good. There's little point in putting out an update at e.g. 10am about the current day.
*All* the other Scottish ski areas need to look Glencoe to see how a ski centre should be run. It's a tough sector to operate in but there is so much right about what Glencoe is doing.
(Maybe sounds a bit harsh, but I've written it now!) |
Not harsh, just the truth.
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The Lecht has always been an overspill for Cairngorm.
Mainly on days where its too windy or their road has closed.
Would be very sad to see the Lecht shut.
Its a great place for kids to learn how to ski. Proper family ski centre.
Location must be a challenge for them in summer as there are not many passing tourists in that NE corner.
The founder (Tosh) recently passed away.
No doubt much of the enthusiasm and drive to keep the place running against all odds originated from him.
| Avabrunch wrote: |
Without knowing the full ins and outs, I would say that a company with net assets of £1.67m 'should' be able to survive somehow without crowdfunding £35k. |
I suspect that the "assets" are the base station / piste-bashers / lifts (all of which need maintained).
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You know it makes sense.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
I suspect that the "assets" are the base station / piste-bashers / lifts (all of which need maintained). |
Quite possibly, but as small company accounts go, they don't look like a basket case to me and I note that their borrowing has reduced. I would have thought that the Directors can find a way through this without crowdfunding.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Avabrunch wrote: |
The Lecht Ski Company Ltd filed their accounts today up to 31.10.2023 - here they are https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC063713/filing-history
Without knowing the full ins and outs, I would say that a company with net assets of £1.67m 'should' be able to survive somehow without crowdfunding £35k. Their cash position has worsened, and best assume it has worsened further due to this season, but I would say they are a going concern still. I'm not saying it will be easy but they must have known bad seasons are possible, and getting more frequent, so a viable contingency plan would have been an idea perhaps?
The travesty of course is still the amount of money totally wasted at Cairngorm. A small fraction of that kind of investment in infrastructure would make all the difference at places like The Lecht. |
Net assets of £1.67m is rather misleading, as most of this are fixed assets of £2.9m worth sod all to anyone else as its ski and site specific.
More relevant is the net current liabilities of £70k, they need to pay liabiblites in excess of short term assets, no change from last year but if they had a crap 23/24 season then this could be a lot worse. Also whjile they have cash they also had a £46k overderaft, the bank could have reduced this or called it in.
But all is suppositions as this figures are 6 months old already and not audited so no external review of going concern (not that this is gospel anyway).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Avabrunch wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
I suspect that the "assets" are the base station / piste-bashers / lifts (all of which need maintained). |
Quite possibly, but as small company accounts go, they don't look like a basket case to me and I note that their borrowing has reduced. I would have thought that the Directors can find a way through this without crowdfunding. |
The problem is that all those "assets" are expensive to maintain.
The Lecht can attract a surprising amount of snow for its low altitude (*if* the wind blows from the North, which it didnt really last winter).
They have 2x covid winters plus a no-snow season. Not entirely surprising they have short term cash flow issues unfortunately.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@ster, @Haggis_Trap, I'm not saying they have a perfect balance sheet, but I am saying that crowdfunding a small amount would be the wrong approach IMV. If it were something positive, like a season pass drive to get money in early, or a business plan to really make a bigger go of DH mountainbiking, then £35k should be unnecessary - after all, it is a private business and the owners get all the upsides if they do things well. To me it just looks like a drive to diminish the overdraft facility.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Avabrunch, yup, as I said, likely s.t. cash needs. Its a “one off” boost, until the next time, to a private business that isn’t working
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Avabrunch wrote: |
| @ster, @Haggis_Trap, I'm not saying they have a perfect balance sheet, but I am saying that crowdfunding a small amount would be the wrong approach IMV. If it were something positive, like a season pass drive to get money in early, or a business plan to really make a bigger go of DH mountainbiking, then £35k should be unnecessary - after all, it is a private business and the owners get all the upsides if they do things well. To me it just looks like a drive to diminish the overdraft facility. |
For sure : crowd funding only a short term solution.
I suspect part of the problem is that the man who founded / drove the family business (Tosh) recently passed away.
Obituary: James McIntosh, driving force behind development of Lecht Ski Centre
https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/obituary-james-mcintosh-driving-force-behind-development-of-lecht-ski-centre-3647723
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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i have asked it before but I forget the reason as to why not but if these areas have the uplifts, base stations, cafe's ect already in place, why do they not look to use these 365 & look to install at least some dry slope pistes?
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@Jonny996, i know absolutely nothing about this but was reading through and thinking the same thing. Plus mountain biking tracks for the summer.
Took a look on their website and can see reports of snow making facilities (snowfactory) that can produce snow in all temps. And also on mountain biking that was closed in summer 2023. So the ideas and direction were there but have fallen down in implementation?
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@Jonny996, The Lecht had a dry slope next to the chairlift, I skied on it once during the summer, it wasn't very good though as it was just laid on top of the heather and had gaps under the matting. Have no idea when it was removed.
This was before Alford Ski Centre was built which may have taken away some of the local users.
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| Handy Turnip wrote: |
@Jonny996, i know absolutely nothing about this but was reading through and thinking the same thing. Plus mountain biking tracks for the summer.
Took a look on their website and can see reports of snow making facilities (snowfactory) that can produce snow in all temps. And also on mountain biking that was closed in summer 2023. So the ideas and direction were there but have fallen down in implementation? |
They have MTB trails and run the chairlift in the summer, it's not a massive money spinner you'll be unsurprised to hear. Cafe is open as well and is unusually good. The costs of building tracks, maintainence all add up plus there are other MTB centres which possibly also have diluted this (glenlivet on the speyside side and Tarland on the Aberdeen side - both highly excellent and I recommend you go !).
It's a tough gig in lean snow, The Lecht has done a great job of serving the schools for lessons (as has Glenshee) in spite of everything else. I'm not sure about the request for cash, i can see both sides. I'm local and volunteer up there as it's an incredible asset particularly for families wanting to ski. It has great terrain and is also not Cairngorm, they hav done a good job there of creating at least something for beginners which is not reliant on the Funicular but at the cot of the taxpayer which grates somewhat. Anyway, it would be a real shame for the Lecht to fold so i contributed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| orange wrote: |
....I'm not sure about the request for cash, i can see both sides.
....Anyway, it would be a real shame for the Lecht to fold so i contributed. |
Agree - you would think it would be HIEs job to bail them out (rather than crowdfunding).
The required 35K is a *tiny* fraction of the money spent at Cairngorm
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The fact Scotland has any ski 'centres' is pretty mad. They're all battling against the fact Scotland just isn't a good place for reliable mass skiing. One or two chairlifts here and there would be suffice.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Agree - you would think it would be HIEs job to bail them out (rather than crowdfunding).
The required 35K is a *tiny* fraction of the money spent at Cairngorm |
Well, with the funicular costing more than £25million to build and now an additional £25million spent on repairs (and it's still not working!) I make the £35K to be about 0.07%, so yes, very tiny fraction. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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One of the things that damaged the ski centres viability was diverting money in to non appropriate diversifications that did more damage than good. HIE pushed this 35 years ago, diversify, diversify, diversify.
Fundamentally mountain snowsports needs by definition to be on high terrain, that usually means remote from significant population. Much of the possible diversifications mentioned above don’t need to be on high mountain terrain, thus can be better provided close to or in large centres of population.
The Lecht dryslope couldn’t compete against the slope at Garthdee in Aberdeen or Alford, or the then existent slope at Ballater. The lifted vertical is not sufficient to drive lift served downhill biking demand to anything like sustainable level of use (they should never have been built - they just destroyed one of the limited red ski runs), lower level forest xc trail centres are closer to population centres and have a much wider appeal.
The market for lift served downhill mountain biking is very small, if it was bigger it wouldn’t be 20 years of no progress trying to build a chairlift at Innerleithen. The reality is Glencoe is the only place where it’s just about economically credible - at Nevis the income from MTB doesn’t come close to maintaining the tracks. Without the World Cup financials it would be total basket case. At Glencoe the cafe spend goes into the lift operator, at Nevis no longer the case, further worsening the financial equation.
In truth the only genuinely successful diversification in Scottish skiing has been accommodation and sledging at Glencoe. The accommodation driven by a unique set of circumstances down to very remote location on a long distance walking route - the West Highland Way - who’s season peaks fall optimally between the ski season and summer holidays and between the end of the English summer school holidays and the October holidays.
Whether the Nevis Range basecamp proves successful or not remains to be seen, but getting it opened has destroyed the ski area, like how the Glen Isla golf course ultimately sunk the Glenshee Chairlift Company and nearly took Glencoe with it.
Unless the Nevis Range Development Company is removed from the equation along with HIE, Nevis is done. CairnGorm is a cluster^*%, if the Lecht collapses, Glenshee and Glencoe can not alone carry the demand. What is absolutely clear is that snowsports alone turns on the money tap at a ski area, making the winter season work is critical. Any diversification must be location appropriate and not worsen the financials!
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We shouldn't really be surprised, given climate change, that small marginal resorts (ie all Scottish skiing) are struggling.
Agree that diversification at places like Lecht and Glenshee is probably not going to work. Small resorts in the Alps don't bother; their seasonal workers go back to farming / forestry / whatever, or move to Mediterranean resorts for the summer.
It might work at Nevis or Cairngorm, but only because these are close to resort towns that are already summer tourist destinations.
In your worst case scenario, with only Glenshee and Glencoe surviving, they could probably significantly increase their prices to reduce any excess demand, so creating a more stable financial position.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hope centre survives, great place for beginners and progression. It seemed like not too much natural snow this year to keep the numbers up.
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