 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi everybody
I'm 76 yrs old and have just come back from a great week skiing in Les Arcs. I got a free lift pass for the Les Arcs area (10 Euro admin fee and didn't cover Le Plagne ) for being over 75 yrs. I get my winter sports insurance free through my bank account but I now pay a £100 extra because of my old age health - two broken bones in last 5 years, blood pressure, cholesterol. All under treatment. Not complaining of course because I am still Quids in.
My question here is, is there an age limit cut off, pure and simple, for winter sports insurance, irrespective of actual health and fitness? Anybody have any experience or knowledge of this?
I think I still have at least a couple of years skiing left in me.
Cheers!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Never heard of one though I don't doubt some providers may decline cover. There are others who clain to specialise in travel insurance for older customers. No doubt higher premiums
You're looking for Off Piste cover I guess by the section and title. I guess there'll be another hike for that too.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@TCSC47, @TCSC47, It depends a lot on the insurer, some will increase the premium some will decline. As an example, Snowcard will not cover anyone 76 or older, ie you, but as far as I can see the BMC has no age limits. They used to say you must be under 70 but this has changed.
I have friends who use the Austrian Alpine Club and EHIC for all their travel insurance requirements. I realise that many snowheads will scorn this, but in 50 years of travelling I have only made one claim on travel insurance and that was for a few hundred pounds yet I have spent thousands on travel insurance, much of which, such as cancellation insurance, wasn't really worth it. When I did have to cancel a trip at short notice the airline allowed me to rebook for a small fee (less than the insurance threshold) and the hotel simply cancelled the booking. Now I simply untick all options apart from rescue and health and accept a high excess.
You will still have to do all your research on insurance policies to find the one suitable for you.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks Adi and John.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I realise that many snowheads will scorn this
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Not really. It makes no financial sense to insure against risks you can afford to run. Having a pair of skis nicked? No. Being rescued by helicopter from the top of a mountain? Yes. Missed departure? No. Having to be flown home from France flat on your back after an injury treated well under EHIC in Chambery Hospital? Yes. Especially as arranging that yourself could be quite a challenge.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Lloyd's premium accounts cover up to 80...I think, but I've moved to nationwide now and its lower
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I now pay over £300 a year for my "free" premium insurance with Nationwide. Or, more accurately, I'm not paying it as when it came up for renewal in January I had no plans to travel abroad so decided to get insurance when the time came. I think I had to pay just for my age, over 75, but the big hit was because I take 6 prescribed meds. I had to answer questions about the way heart failure affects me, too (e.g. I can lie flat, which a lot of people with HF can't).
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Just prior to knee replacement surgery the anaesthetist phoned me on my mobile phone. Fortunately, I had a hand free and was able to extradite the appliance from my pocket. He asked "can you walk 100m on the flat?" At the time I was 20m up a rock climb after walking uphill to get to it. It was the walk down I was dreading.
I was once puzzled why my doctor asked how many pillows I used to sleep. I replied one. My wife explained to me that the number of pillows is an indicator of cardio vascular trouble.
It is the number of medical conditions you have that affects your insurance premiums or even whether you can get cover at all rather than your age. But as you get older you tend to build up these problems.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think insurers go a bit weird over age.
For setting rates and exclusions actuaries have available
- use of objective data on claims risk
- anticipated changes in risk
- models of individuals
- prejudice
- commercial interest
Which gives the possibility of very different premiums over time and from different companies
Sigh….
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| johnE wrote: |
@TCSC47, @TCSC47, It depends a lot on the insurer, some will increase the premium some will decline. As an example, Snowcard will not cover anyone 76 or older, ie you, but as far as I can see the BMC has no age limits. They used to say you must be under 70 but this has changed.
I have friends who use the Austrian Alpine Club and EHIC for all their travel insurance requirements. I realise that many snowheads will scorn this, |
Not scornful but wary of this route to happiness. I have a feeling AAC doesn't cover repatriation? That can be a biggie if you need air ambulance with a medical team. GHIC works best if your resort is close enough to a state facility - eg Chamonix is a good choice for this reason. Lots of resorts are a bit of a distance to their nearest and your chosen resort might only have private facilities. What if your injury means you can't be moved?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| Lloyd's premium accounts cover up to 80...I think, but I've moved to nationwide now and its lower |
I'm with Nationwide and have their insurance ..I do pay an excess for being over 75 (which I am) but having read the terms I cannot find any cut off date for skiing ..
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Joint01
Joint01
Guest
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| DaveD wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| Lloyd's premium accounts cover up to 80...I think, but I've moved to nationwide now and its lower |
I'm with Nationwide and have their insurance ..I do pay an excess for being over 75 (which I am) but having read the terms I cannot find any cut off date for skiing .. |
They probably do that to avoid taking risks with clients whose chances are a high probbability to sue their asses
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| Avabrunch wrote: |
| johnE wrote: |
...
I have friends who use the Austrian Alpine Club and EHIC for all their travel insurance requirements. I realise that many snowheads will scorn this, |
Not scornful but wary of this route to happiness. I have a feeling AAC doesn't cover repatriation? That can be a biggie if you need air ambulance with a medical team. GHIC works best if your resort is close enough to a state facility - eg Chamonix is a good choice for this reason. Lots of resorts are a bit of a distance to their nearest and your chosen resort might only have private facilities. What if your injury means you can't be moved? |
Have you checked? Seems to me it includes rescue, medical bills, repatriation and (within Europe) third-party liability.
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You know it makes sense.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| Have you checked? Seems to me it includes rescue, medical bills, repatriation and (within Europe) third-party liability. |
This the one that's all in German? I guess it does cover repat:
| Quote: |
Exclusively for members of the Austrian Alpine Club:
Expansion of the Alpine Club Worldwide Service included in membership
- to cover medical treatment costs abroad up to EUR 500,000 and
- transport home
- search and rescue
for a trip
- up to 4 months |
It just quoted me 25 Euro for one week and didn't ask my age. Seems too good to be true 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| valais2 wrote: |
I think insurers go a bit weird over age.
For setting rates and exclusions actuaries have available
- use of objective data on claims risk
- anticipated changes in risk
- models of individuals
- prejudice
- commercial interest
Which gives the possibility of very different premiums over time and from different companies
Sigh…. |
Actuaries in my experience do not use prejudice in assessing rates. However, you may find less actuaries and more statisticians setting rates for general insurance. Actuaries may be more involved in reserve setting, it depends on the company (size and breadth). Small companies would outsource statutory requirements (like reserving) to consultancies.
Someone called an underwriter is probably officially using prejudice, and it is an underwriter who will assess your premium if it is non standard. (some actuaries are underwriters, but this is not a mutually exclusive arrangement: in other words underwriters are generally not actuaries, but an actuary could also be an underwriter; probably involved in more esoteric risks than travel insurance like hurricane and tornado damage)
In the case of elderly skiers I am afraid data will be very limited, and so any premium quoted is determined by an underwriter (an actuary would not be able to give rates as there is no statistically significant data).
I know my parents free travel insurance with bank account stopped when they reached 80. So they switched to a non fee paying current account, but they did not do winter sports. So the data will be limited above 80 mainly because travel insurance has age restrictions too, not just winter sports insurance.
If there was a significant market of elderly over 80 skiers requiring extreme sports insurance I would suggest that they join a club and set up a with profits company where the policy-holders own all the profits. Then charge them high premiums for a while until some reliable data appears. Premiums can start to come down once you have the data, if the company is not busted. Reinsurance companies may offer to take a cut of the risk for a cut, reducing the chances of one claim wiping out the company completely.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ski Club of GB's insurers don't insure over 80. I'll be 76 next season and obviously the premium goes up with health conditions. However they do insure off-piste without a guide.
I would have liked to see the "75 and over" stats, above!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@snowball, Thats the trouble with all these analyses they stop at 65 without observing that there is greater change in your physical capabilities between 65 and 75 than 55 to 65
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Bigtipper wrote: |
| Actuaries in my experience do not use prejudice in assessing rates. However, you may find less actuaries and more statisticians setting rates for general insurance. |
I was in the insurance game over 20 years ago and still have many connections. Actual qualified actuaries are few and far between, most underwriters are young grads with spreadsheets and algorithms, plus a set of targets/instructions from above. There is a lot of finger in the air stuff because the past doesn't always necessarily predict the future. It is why underwriting contracts tend to be 3-5 years - first year is a bit of an educated guess, second year things get adjusted based on claims, inflation etc, third year, hopefully, it all comes together and there is a profit.
| Bigtipper wrote: |
| In the case of elderly skiers I am afraid data will be very limited |
There's loads regarding illness, risk of cancellation, claim costs but I would guess less regarding injuries. That said, the cost of sorting out an injured 20 year old is likely to be very different from an 80 year old with the same injury.
| Bigtipper wrote: |
| If there was a significant market of elderly over 80 skiers requiring extreme sports insurance I would suggest that they join a club and set up a with profits company where the policy-holders own all the profits. Then charge them high premiums for a while until some reliable data appears. Premiums can start to come down once you have the data, if the company is not busted. Reinsurance companies may offer to take a cut of the risk for a cut, reducing the chances of one claim wiping out the company completely. |
What profits? Travel is the Cinderella of insurance. Most schemes barely break even for underwriters and around the beer barrels in Leadenhall Market it is a bit of a joke. Setting up what you suggest would be commercial and regulatory suicide. Reinsurance, if you can get it, is very costly in travel. It works well for big stuff like maritime, aerospace, agriculture, construction and the like, but nobody I can think of reinsures their travel book.
The truth is that insurers really don't want skiers over a certain age and I know because I am also a certain age. Frankly it's why north America is a definite no go area for me now.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Avabrunch wrote: |
| ... Actual qualified actuaries are few and far between, ... |
But quite a few are into skiing, so there may be some on here!
Going back to the age distribution chart above I was surprised by the low proportion at 65+. Unscientific observation in lift queues, travel hubs etc around Europe suggest to me it ought to be more than 1 in 30. But this could be biased by UK skiers tending to go to larger, more expensive resorts. Looking into it a bit further, it seems that the above chart is for US skiers, and that in Europe the proportion of older skiers might be somewhat higher.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/527230/age-snowsport-vacationers-united-kingdom-uk/ indicates that around 20% of UK skiers are 60+. (But for some reason it thinks there are no under-21s, so all the figures need scaling down a bit!).
https://skiaddict.co.uk/blog/why-young-people-arent-skiing-anymore/ suggests two-thirds of skiers are over 45, but doesn't break it down further.
SCGB probably isn't totally representative of UK skiers, but has over 20% of members at 65+.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Often members of clubs are historic and are there because they used to ski. (rather than actively ski) They are members because they enjoy the social connection of people who ski, rather than still take out insurance and ski.
In Scotland, people do not take out insurance to ski, and often ski off piste in places like Glencoe as the lines are blurred. I suspect there are many over 65s skiing there.
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Joint01
Joint01
Guest
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I haven't heard of an age limit, but my father which is around as old as you are, got refused once because they couldn't insure him, good thing they recommended another inssurance clinic and it was OK. (with 100£ extra fee)
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I wish there was an OOPS club. (Octogenarians Off Piste Ski). I have skied with grandchildren in recent winters and having just reached 80 I'm covered through Nationwide. I'm wondering what will happen on renewal in December but have already booked one ski trip for January. I am sure I am much more at risk of injury on piste than off piste but insurers don't seem to understand. It's a shame that SCGB insurance won't cover me, even on holidays they sell.
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I wish there was an OOPS club. (Octogenarians Off Piste Ski). I have skied with grandchildren in recent winters and having just reached 80 I'm covered through Nationwide. I'm wondering what will happen on renewal in December but have already booked one ski trip for January. I am sure I am much more at risk of injury on piste than off piste but insurers don't seem to understand. It's a shame that SCGB insurance won't cover me, even on holidays they sell. I have never made a claim but I have been knocked over twice while stationary at the side of a blue run.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I am sure I am much more at risk of injury on piste than off piste
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But maybe off piste ones are more expensive.... 
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| Origen wrote: |
| .. But maybe off piste ones are more expensive.... |
Or cheaper. My mate was fortunate to be heli-ed for free out of the back country just outside the 3V; I believe that they'd have charged if he'd been in the actual resort.
But the clinical costs are surely entirely the same.
And age related stuff isn't particularly affected by the designation of the terrain either.
Just an idea, but perhaps one could buy the standard insurance, then cover any additional costs for "being off piste" yourself. If you pay for your own heli (or use the free government one), I'm not sure that an insurer could contractually deny cover for (say) a cardiac arrest based on precisely where that occurred; the issue isn't caused by standing the wrong side of a piste marker, and their age related premium already took the risk into account.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I'm not sure that an insurer could contractually deny cover for (say) a cardiac arrest based on precisely where that occurred
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Hmm. I bet they could, if their cover explicitly excluded skiing off piste. I think one of the expensive things is getting a body home. Or getting a badly injured person home, with special medical flights and nurses etc. If you weren't bothered about getting your injured self, or your corpse, home, I guess you could just stay in Austria, or France, or wherever and rely on whatever the local system did for you!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So I have been pointed in the direction of (by the company that does the insurance underwriting rather than the marketing)
All Clear Travel (https://www.allcleartravel.co.uk/)
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Specialises in cover for pre-existing medical conditions and older travellers
I have not verified exactly what the premiums are and whether winter sports can be included, but I suspect it should be OK. They also allow you to exclude USA, Mexico and Carribean from annual multi-cover which should reduce the cost if you ski in Europe only.
Going to an insurer who specialises in this area of cover is more likely to be successful than going to the usual suspects. (a bit like car insurance for young drivers of performance cars)
Seem to have been recommended by Which? in June 2024 as a best buy (plus some other insurance awards)
Get a quote and let us know if it meets your requirements or not. If not, be specific why not! (they say they have no upper age for travel insurance at all!)
ps. I receive no commission and have no opinion one way or the other. Just that they claim to specialise in the niche you are looking to be insured (which means you will at least get offered a quote, even if it is expensive)
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All Clear winter sports is only available up to 65 on most of their policies and has an absolute limit of 75 for winter sports. They are also quite restrictive when it comes to off piste without a guide. I also recall for annual policies they place a limit on the number of ski days.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Ski lots, if this is true then you could at least get standard travel insurance with these people, and then get the cover with the lift pass for seniors.
I suspect that you may be right, but I have not confirmed this. Their website does say that standard travel insurance is available at all ages. Winter sports, or hang gliding insurance is not standard.
https://www.saga.co.uk/travel-insurance/ski-travel-insurance
Saga say there is no upper age limit for travel insurance with winter sports cover either on a single trip or multi-trip. However, "although some medical conditions may mean an annual policy is not available"
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FAQ
