Also don't know Zermatt at all. Acc. to the swiss report that is a steep 'variant' route and they had warning level 4 at the time. They are not sure how many are missing. There are several tracks leading into the avalanche...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Heartbreaking, my final day of 2024 season, we had a blast in some really good and unexpected fresh snow this morning.
To see that clip is chilling, if there were skiers in there my instinct says little or no hope of survival.
I sincerely hope I am wrong!
Latest reports in Austrian press says 3 bodies and one injured recovered. Search is called off until tomorrow. RIP.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Awful, RIP
After all it is free
After all it is free
Terrible, I could easily have been there today. RIP
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Sad news. But taking a big risk skiing such high consequence terrain on a level 4 day. Will be interesting to see the final report. Unfortunately looks like more easily avoidable avalanche deaths.
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Tragic for those involved.
@boarder2020, seems like authorities are feeling frustrated by people ignoring the avy' warnings.
"...head of the Zermatt mountain rescue and avalanche service, Bruno Jelk, spoke about two avalanches that were probably triggered by someone. He doesn't understand why people were outside the slopes in these conditions. Jelk further criticized the fact that avalanche warnings were increasingly being ignored: “The warning is simply disregarded and ignored. You can put out whatever you want there. People still leave.”
Be careful out there folks.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@adithorp, It’s very interesting to see the development in the maturity of Nico Schirmer.
Wavy 1 film has them doing couloirs with little avalanche knowledge and their group of four (Nico, Krister, and two cameramen) triggering a nasty slab avalanche in the top section of the couloir. They realise that they would have been flushed if the section above them had gone. Prior to that they were laughing and giggling as sections of slab broke free - their discussion is typical ‘group think’ which reinforces neglect and dismissal of growing objective signs of instability.
But they were sharp enough to realise that they had pushed over the limit, through groupthink and ignorance. It was a genuine wake-up call.
Subsequently, they did two months of specialist training with top guides and became really expert in interpreting terrain, interpreting snow pack through snow pits, examining snow particle form, and being aware of processes of wind accumulation, sun transformation, consolidation etc. The films themselves have taught me a lot and reinforced the fact that it is a lifetime’s learning.
The majority of deaths in the Alps this year were ski tourers.
I was having boots fitted on Friday and had a long talk with the (very experienced) fitter. He says to people buying 100+ waist skis ‘what sort of skiing are you thinking of doing’. The majority want to head off piste and have no equipment or knowledge to make that safe. ‘Are you buying beacons, shovels and probes?’ … no that’s more money than we have…’Have you been on an avi awareness course?’…..No…why….etc. These are the guys who will head off onto convex slopes in Avi4, spinning the chamber on russian roulette every time.
My first wake up call was Arolla in the early 2000s. I had no avalanche knowledge, and looked up at the big slope to the right with three or four first tracks in the recent snow. So it had been skied - no problem then. What was the avi warning at the base station? I couldn’t recall noting it (it was 4). We headed across the top of the slope, amused and then alarmed at the cracks appearing as we traversed. At the drop in point we knew we had screwed up. I cannot tell you how gentle those turns were as we descended, and how much we aimed to not overlap each other’s tracks. At that point I read a lot, and did avi training. We knew that on that day, we had crossed a line and been VERY lucky that the snow trolls had allowed us to live and learn.
I read a lot, watched a lot, and did an avi course. Which started me off, but is no substitute for a lifetime in the hills.
My second wake up call was 22-23 season, when in the woods in Vercorin. Trees. So no instability, right? Apart from the fact that the pillow I was messing about on started to fail and carry me with it. I got off it fast enough, but there was enough material to bury me.
I sent the Grom off on an avi course 1:1 this year (very expensive but a wake up call for him).
My view is that this is going to happen more and more. Just scoping a few new places and watching a POMOCA sponsored film on Les Marecottes they were emphasising how first tracks now appearing really fast all over the Freeride areas in ways not evident before. Mentality for some ‘I have fat skis…I am here for a week…there’s fresh out there and I must not lose the chance…’. No understanding of need to wait for consolidation, no understanding of ‘persistent weak layer’, no understanding of 2 moderate meaning some areas highly problematic etc etc.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
My GP (a very sage lady approaching retirement) - a Chamonix local originally and a keen alpiniste (i.e. a few steps up from ski touring) was despairing at my last appt at the numbers of people heading off up on skins clearly without avvy kit (no rucsacs, or too small packs) ... "they don't fear what they don't know to fear" ...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
under a new name wrote:
Grim. I don't know Zermatt at all, would that hit pistes? It looks huge
Almost certainly no. The piste is a fair distance away the other side of a valley. Pretty common off piste area - with many doing it without avi gear as easily accessed from piste. It is a nice summer walk - steep obviously so not too surprising that at level 4 an avalanche could get triggered.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@under a new name, double tick
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
We left Zermatt on Sunday, the day before this happened. The whole week had been very mixed, lots of snow, some warm temperatures, strong and Föhn winds. A dangerous combination. Monday was the first sunny day for a while. The avalanche risk was high and indicated as such. As JohnMo says, this was entirely off piste and down into a valley near the Riffelalp resort, so luckily unlikely to impact any of the pisted area.
There had been non stop snow cannons going off on Sunday morning so a lot of work being done by piste patrol. This is a terrible tragedy for those involved but given the conditions the risks were high choosing to ski in that area I would have thought….
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@scotsgirl, you need an informed mindset with new snow - look at it and listen…it is saying
‘I am here to be skied…’
Or
‘I am waiting to lure you in and bury you..’
A Siren Call can be deadly
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
under a new name wrote:
Grim. I don't know Zermatt at all, would that hit pistes? It looks huge
My info from a SH who is out there and was on the piste 'below' the slide apparently is that:
- the slide stopped ~30m from the piste he was on
- apparently people on that piste seemed quite oblivious to the risk to them & were mostly just gazing up at the mountain face hurtling towards them!?!
- it was a general Avi 3 risk day according to him
(I've asked him whether in the avi risk report there may have been a local avi risk 4 assessment for slopes of this type &/or others possibly (?), or if when there are slides authorities may (?) alter their original general Avi risk assessment to reflect what they then knew from seeing slides occur (?).
I currently dunno the answers to either of these questions. However, I know the former is both possible & frequent (e.g. I've seen things like extra risk ratings (4/5 on a general Ava 3 Risk day say) given to say NE slopes between 2000-2500m in ava risk assessment reports, etc). I'm not sure about the latter, though, but it would seem to make sense that authorities could reassess their original general (&/or localised) Avi Risk when slides start occurring, or other risks become more apparent, etc...
P.s. I could well have been out there as I really liked the look of the forecast (i know....) & but for travel logistics from my part of the jungle I would have been.... thanking my lucky stars tbh, as who is to say if I had joined my ski buddy in that group that we might not have been on or much closer to that face when it went.... serendipity & all that !!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yes, European backcountry is unstable right now.
A prolonged snow-wind-rain-snow cycle has loosened the snowpack.
There's been more blasting of loose snow in resorts this week than at any time all season.
@horgand, I can't see the full report as the SLF page only shows the current report, not previous ones as far as I can see, but here is the overview map:
Assuming the slope is near Zermatt itself, then the level was 4. If it was further west, then 3.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
And as has rightly been said here many times…most deaths occur on level 2 and 3 days, since in general it may be a moderate risk but on specific slopes it can be off-the-scale dangerous.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 2-04-24 13:35; edited 1 time in total
@Scarlet, All of the Zermatt ski area is contained within the pink area on the map. The yellow area is well outside. The location where the recent fatalities occurred with the ski tourers is pretty much where the border between the yellow & pink areas is just below Dent Blanche.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@munich_irish, …indeed - and it’s a line on a map, drawn by a human. It’s a construct. The question always is - even when digging a pit - that’s HERE, but what about THERE….which can be just a few metres away….
Remaining alive whilst in the dangerous environment which mountains are requires constant judgement and endless vigilance. That judgement is driven by deep knowledge - I regard myself as an utter and complete amateur alongside experienced UIAGM guides like Serge Lambert (Vercorin). Yet I am a hell of a lot more avalanche aware than some of the people dragging their phat planks onto a drop-on zone or skinning uphill in a large group.
Have they read the bulletins? Have they done their beta on the topography? Etc etc - often not.
Getting first tracks can be a dangerous game.
A footnote on the Dent Blanche incident - it looks like the incident was caused by a false assumption that they could beat the weather to the hut. They moved SO slowly over the first few hours that they should have known that they should have aborted. But they carried on. I have wondered whether they had got up into the wind and were averse to retracing INTO the wind - unpleasant but safe. They may have had equipment failure, they may have had disagreements about turnaround - which always eat time. They may have had all of these things. But it seems that they should have been far better in making a judgement that their pace - when they were so lightly equipped - would not outrun the storm, which was fully forecast.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@munich_irish, thanks, I don't know the area so couldn't locate it precisely myself. The pink (red) section depicts level 4, and the yellow (orange) section is 3. It was also 4 over the border in Cervinia, and looks like it may even have been 5 (black) in Piemonte to the east.
@valais2, yes, it's a construct and variable, which is why there are so many data points for avalanche reporting. It seems that the risk level was reported as being high, and it is common to see spontaneous avalanches on these days.
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An interview with Marcel Hildbrand, local security chief.
@horgand, Interesting, I wonder where he was standing for it to get within 30m of the piste. That would be very unusual. The avalanche came from the north facing area under the ridge where the Furi (Schweigmatten) to Riffelberg gondola runs (I have marked A on the topography map). The video in the article above was shot from the Riffelalp resort which I marked B. As you can see from the piste map the piste runs away from Rifeelberg and the lift line then loops round to Riffelalp. There would be little or no potential for the avalanche to reach close to that section and I think you can see that in the video. From Riffelalp the piste runs along the top of the eastern side of the gully which you can see on the topography map, but which is also fairly well represented by the piste map. It is the gully in the photo in the article above. The avalanche came from the west side of the gully. Obviously an avalanche has some potential to climb up the other side of a gully but I would be surprised if it managed to get sufficiently far up to be only 30 metres from the piste. The avalanche cloud might well have made it: an avalanche cloud can be unpleasant to stand in but is unlikely to do you any harm.
I wonder if the avalanche was sufficiently large with sufficient momentum to make it right down the gully towards Schwegmatten (I have marked C on the topography map). Schweigmatten is where the bottom of the Riffelberg gondola is. That would take some doing and I have never seen a slide get anywhere close to there but it is certainly possible.
That whole face is not one I would usually think of as being very high avalanche risk (although on an avalanche risk 4 day, everything is). It is very steep so there are slides of fresh snow but generally there are not large accumulations on the face to give rise to a larger avalanche. I think there was just so much snow over the previous few days that unusually a large accumulation did build up giving rise to the tragic consequences you can see in the video.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@JohnMo, That’s good local knowledge.
I wonder if people misinterpret the ‘free’ in ‘freeskiing’
The professionals know that it does not mean ‘free from all constraints….’; as in ‘I’m free, I’m free!!…’
They know it means ‘…you need to apply the rules, no one is looking out for you, so you have to take full responsibility for your life and that of others’….’
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@ Johnmo,
Not sure, I've only repeated my ski buddy's assertion. I suspect, reading your local knowledge take, that he meant 30m from the avalanche cloud which looks substantial for this avalanche, judging by the videos.
(I was only out in Cervinia & Zermatt myself 2 weeks ago, but I'm not overly familiar with the ins & outs of the terrain myself tbh)
I'm curious about the stated avalanche risk pre & post avalanche however, & also the avalanche bulletin issued on the day in question (i.e. Monday morning)
If resorts are restating avalanche risk after slides that's fair enough with a view to better ensuring safety & accurately reflecting the perceived risk from then on, but I sincerely hope that resorts are reporting incidents with the avalanche risk level quoted at the time of the incident & slide.... I have to presume this is the case!?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
It shows that the Zermatt area was 4 yesterday, both in the forecast issued Sunday afternoon and the update yesterday morning.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
most deaths occur on level 2 and 3 days
Most deaths occur on level 3 days (around 50% but depends which stats you look at). Traditionally there have been less deaths at level 4 than level 2. However, it was always explained as people likely to go after riskier objectives when the forecast risk was 2 and people avoiding avalanche terrain or making very conservative decisions when risk was 4. As people seem to be doing less of the latter maybe we will see an evening out of the curve.
There was the guy that died in an avalanche who had told his sister something along the lines of "best snow is on a level 4 day".
There definitely seems to be a trend for pushing the risks further. Simply more people going off piste? Influenced by the likes of Nikolai Schirmer wanting to ski big lines? Less knowledge of avalanche conditions? More competition for first tracks making it a race? Probably some combination of all.
We had 4 people die in Kyrgyzstan this year. Similar story; skiing a slope way too dangerous for the avalanche conditions with a terrain trap below, not skiing one at a time so multiple burials. Just unnecessary. Especially as there was so much great safe skiing to be had on the same day (which I expect was also true in this case).
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@boarder2020, nice analysis.
Note that Schirmer documents his own conversion to avalanche awareness - and it’s very informative I think.
After this they went on an intensive avalanche analysis course
A deeper look suggests this avalanche was a northwest trail above 2000m and it slid at 2pm.
Chimes with Whitegold's Law (WL).
Never ski above 2000m on northerly slopes after midday.
They melt, crack, and slide.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Whitegold, ...er I stand to be corrected but northern slopes tend to be hazardous not due to melting (although that can of course be an issue) but due to being unconsolidated - weak layers and layers which have become transformed into surface hoar frost tend to be buried in the pack since they are not broken down by the sun before they are buried by new snow - so Northern faces tend to have more weak layers in them.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@valais2, you are correct. Also on north slopes the colder temps allow for weak layers to form in the pack itself.
Talk of level 3 and 4, it's easy to forget level 3 is considerable. One wouldn't walk the streets of a renowned crime area because of a considerable chance of being a victim.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
valais2 wrote:
@boarder2020, nice analysis.
Note that Schirmer documents his own conversion to avalanche awareness - and it’s very informative I think.
After this they went on an intensive avalanche analysis course
"You live and you learn". Or you die and you don't
Great video, thanks for sharing. Videos like that are hopefully the way to reach more of those inclined to push things that bit further.
EDIT: Although reading the comments (and then watching the video of his brother "tomahawking" down a steep face for almost a minute) shows Niko and his friends have been pushing things for quite a while already.
Hopefully they have learned from this and got themselves better educated as you say.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 3-04-24 8:20; edited 1 time in total
^ Nico Schirmer is a bomb scare. Hyperactive kid who repeatedly documents the same repeated errors on you-tube (while pretending he learned a lesson).
Good skier but perfect example to kids of what not to do.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think the area where this happened is one of several 'wildlife protection zones' in Zermatt, some of which are marked by lines with plastic flags. Looking at this map:
suggests that the slope below Riffelberg has 'recommended' status rather than 'prohibited':
so maybe there isn't any marking there - I can't remember seeing anything. The area below the Gant-Blauherd chair is definitely marked with 'no entry' signs.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Worth noting that the entire Zermatt ski area never opened on the day of the avalanche, presumably due to avalanche risk. Even if you did not check the avalanche warning it would have been apparent that the risk was very high, if not a single piste was open.
We were in Cervinia and you could see from the ski map displays that everything in Zermatt was closed. In Cervinia the avalanche risk was also 4 and only the bottom lifts were open in the morning, with most of the rest opening gradually during the day.
Zermatt is still closed, two days later. Not sure if it is due to avalanche risk or search operations.
Even with such a horrific lesson just over the ridge a day earlier, and avi risk still at 4, loads of people were going way off piste in Cervinia yesterday, lured by the fresh pow. On a lift someone told me that the piste police were fining people who were off piste, but you would need hundreds of patrollers to stop the tide of people. It is going to get to the point where they close the whole resort just to try to stop people going off piste on days like that.
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@koru, I think you might be looking at the Cervinia app or website which shows the whole Zermatt area as closed when the link from Cervinia to Zermatt is closed (and vice versa on Zermatt app). Zermatt was open on the day of the avalanche. Specifically the lift and the train up to Riffelberg was open - that is where you come from to access that off piste area.
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koru wrote:
.
We were in Cervinia and you could see from the ski map displays that everything in Zermatt was closed.
From the Zermatt side, when the link is closed, I think everything in Cervinia shows as closed, so maybe the reverse is true?
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