 Poster: A snowHead
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On my recent long stay in the Tignes/Val area I noticed a lot of kids skiing off piste with groups, parents etc. Some well under 10 years of age. Almost to a child none had a backpack.
Now whilst I assume all should have a transceiver so they can be found are there any golden rules about equipping them with shovel and probe? Is it assumed below a certain age they cannot effectively contribute to a search?
Had a quick look round and cannot immediately see any standard advice.
Does not affect me but when asking in resort no one seemed to know.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Groups of kids often seen in off/side-piste in PDS with ESF instructors without backpacks and generally in areas in view of lifts or heavily used such as Happy Valley. I think this is quite normal for France. The bigger worry are families that venture off-piste in un-ideal conditions with the dad normally leading the charge, kids struggling and the mum following behind.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No rules. Every parent will have their own perspective, risk tolerance and awareness of conditions.
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I had to tell my wife , when he says off piste he means 2 foot off the sides in the small jumps that form.
If he wants to go further he’ll need to find a new dad that can ski better than I
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Jonny996 wrote: |
| When he wants to go further he’ll need to find a new dad that can ski better than I |
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@Mark1863, as per @sweaman22 comments.
Ours are now 12 and 14. They have been wearing a transceiver for 3/4 years iirc and this season are carrying shovel and probe in a rucksack.
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If we are venturing offpiste, my son wears a transceiver and carries a backpack with shovel and probe. I had to trim the handle of the shovel to make it fit. Probe can’t do much about the size so it’s strapped on the outside of the pack. As much as anything, it’s to get him in the right mindset for safety. Age 10 here doing a short tour in Åre:
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@Layne, Sounds about right, 150 years ago they were old enough to work down't pit, so should be capable of shovelling snow under direction of someone a bit older. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My 9 year old goes off piste with his instructors, but they insist he wears a transceiver. No shovel or probe as they wouldn’t expect him to perform a search, they just want to be able to find him if the situation arose.
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| Quote: |
As much as anything, it’s to get him in the right mindset for safety.
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I think a "no off-piste unless carrying full avy equipment" rule is good for enforcing safe habits. Although I can see the argument of why carry something you can't/dont know how to use.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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“No fancy toys until you’ve done some training” has been my mindset.
I’ve taken the view that education (and hopefully avoidance) is the first priority, and gear should be second. We did 2 days of training with Avalanche Academy this winter with our 9 and 12 year olds, and we practice weekly in the ARVA Park - so much so that my kids now know where all the virtual transceivers are buried.
In terms of the OPs question about age, my 12year old is similar to an adult in speed for search and probe, but will still struggle with the digging. Then again, having never seen an adult practice shifting 2 cubic metres of snow, I’m not sure how good most adults will be. My 9 yr old is still a little too thoughtful at each stage and hasn’t yet got all the steps into “muscle memory”, but still knows what to do. I really wouldn’t want her digging me out if I was more than 50cm below the surface tho!
Having done lots of training mine now have transceiver/shovel/probe, and my 12 yr old has an airbag, but more importantly they can instantly recite the five red flags, they know about slope angle, and at any point skiing I can stop and ask them the single greatest hazard in the current environment. What they don’t yet do is maintain that continuously and proactively.
For me, they need to be Responsible, know about Avoidance, have Education, then Gear. In case you haven’t spotted, that’s “GEAR” backwards...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Common sense as with most things!!
Until of sufficient maturity physically and mentally to fully use avi gear it seems to me a 2 adult present methodology seems wise (on any slope steep enough to avalanche).
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@snowdave, Doesn't matter how good you are at shoveling snow if you are doing it in the wrong place. Location technique is far more important than digging ability.
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You know it makes sense.
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If I am five feet down, wearing a transceiver, would I really want my beloved fourteen year old to be responsible for digging me out - or the trauma of having a signal and not being able to dig me out? I think not. Imagine the impact...
This past week I arranged a morning’s avalanche awareness for the Grom - essential for him to hear it from a UIAGM guide not just me - sure he needs to wear a transceiver and know how to use it for search, but far more important is the accumulated knowledge of how to avoid risk in the first place - not least ‘the decision which puts most people at risk is what they decide before they set out....’ - the risk of ‘fixed objectives’ and ‘fixed routes’.....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| valais2 wrote: |
If I am five feet down, wearing a transceiver, would I really want my beloved fourteen year old to be responsible for digging me out - or the trauma of having a signal and not being able to dig me out? I think not. Imagine the impact...
This past week I arranged a morning’s avalanche awareness for the Grom - essential for him to hear it from a UIAGM guide not just me - sure he needs to wear a transceiver and know how to use it for search, but far more important is the accumulated knowledge of how to avoid risk in the first place - not least ‘the decision which puts most people at risk is what they decide before they set out....’ - the risk of ‘fixed objectives’ and ‘fixed routes’..... |
This is my argument. When my son was that age, I felt that anywhere where he might plausibly have use of shovel and probe we should not be. So we restricted ourselves to <30 degrees, risk 3 or below with VERY benign terrain features (shoulders not faces, no terrain traps, no overhanging snow fields). We always talked about why we were skiing where we were and why we were not skiing other places. My kids started carrying packs last year at 16 and 14 (older one was ready and decided to give the younger one too).
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Poster: A snowHead
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@valais2, +1, avoidance comes long before gear!
@Kenzie, equally being able to locate and not dig is useless, you need to be able to do both, but I question the relative weighting. Digging is the slow part of the process and the one I see very few people practicing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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How do your kids build jumps without a shovel in their pack?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
@valais2, +1, avoidance comes long before gear!
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I agree that avoidance is more important. However, I don't see why you can't teach avoidance while also hammering home the need to carry probe and shovel.
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@boarder2020, you can (and it’s the approach I’ve taken) but how many do? The original question on here wasn’t about training it was about gear, and many responses echo that.
That’s not to say anyone talking about gear isn’t thinking about/doing training, but a few times a season the question about kids and gear pops up, the question about when and how to train kids is rarely asked.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Avoidance is a bit of a dark art. It's a lot of judgement on specific collection of factors: weather history, snow history, location...
People who insist on a fixed regiment give me pauses. What are they thinking when they decide to ski a line? Do they think in terms of absolutes also?
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@abc,
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People who insist on a fixed regiment give me pauses. What are they thinking when they decide to ski a line? Do they think in terms of absolutes also?
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Not quite sure what you are asking but the avalanche safety experts tend to stress the use of fixed rules / frameworks etc as a way of resisting all the human behavioural foibles that lead us to make poor decisions in the moment.
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| jedster wrote: |
Not quite sure what you are asking but the avalanche safety experts tend to stress the use of fixed rules / frameworks etc as a way of resisting all the human behavioural foibles that lead us to make poor decisions in the moment. |
That's a good point but remember that something like the Munter reduction method only reduce the risk to what is described as "socially acceptable", that is a similar level to car accidents deaths.
My own rule for skiing with kids is if there is a risk of avalanche, I don't ski there. Whether you carry avy gear or not to ski it is up to you, I hear the arguments about getting into the habit and they are valid. That said, if there is no risk I don't carry avalanche gear.
> On my recent long stay in the Tignes/Val area I noticed a lot of kids skiing off piste with groups, parents etc. Some well under 10 years of age. Almost to a child none had a backpack.
I imagine almost none, except anglo kids, had a beacon either
> Groups of kids often seen in off/side-piste in PDS with ESF instructors without backpacks and generally in areas in view of lifts or heavily used such as Happy Valley.
and probably without beacons, depending on the terrain
> The bigger worry are families that venture off-piste in un-ideal conditions
Yes, but it is pretty rare for families with kids to get avalanched so in general there are a lot of lucky kids out there and/or they are doing something right, even in France - the last big incident I recall was in Val d'Isere where the family were on a closed run although there is some doubt about how clearly this was indicated
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Yes - I agree with that.
My kids are now 17 and 15 and we are only now beginning to accept any real avalanche risk - e.g., a 100m traverse with 40 degree slopes above that provides access to a long ski below 30 degrees which is not exposed above. We are now all carrying equipment, moving one at a time between points of safety and ensuring that the avalanche risk on that steeper slope is very moderate given the avalanche report etc.
Aged 17 I was off leading poorly protected trad rock climbs with no adult supervision... probably a fair bit more dangerous.
My kids now feel ready to get a bit more experience and practice the skills. Won't be long before they are skiing this kind of stuff without me.
Not an easy balance to strike.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Evolution in ChX take my kids off piste ( 9 and 11) they insist on transceivers but also ask for pack, shovel and probes as they are teaching them to use them. They get them to dig snow caves and search for buried transceivers. All a lot of fun even if the kids are well drilled in why they are doing it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Transceiver yes, shovel and probe not much use if they are small.
If you’re head goes under the snow in a slide you have approximately one chance in six of being rescued, with full kit two chances. Neither is great odds.
What’s most important is your head not going under the snow.
Notwithstanding air bags, this requires knowledge, skill, organisation, planning and a bit of luck.
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Hi all,
Rather than start a new thread I thought I'd try to resurrect this oldy .
We got 7 and 9 year old, both progressing quickly done silver level at oxygene, carving well etc.
Feel for them and us more park and off piste/ touring is in near future but having done no offence piste myself not sure best way to approach this...
Will any of the avalanche/ off piste / touring courses etc allow the kids on them? And if so which ones!?
We appear to be ramping up our skiing with 2 weeks last yr and 5 this yr while planning to goto NZ for their winter season this year. I understand NZ is primarily off piste, but perhaps in avalanch controlled hills? I guess I need to approach NZ companies and ask this question.
Any advice appreciated.
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You know it makes sense.
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@noodlehat, imo best option is N America where you can learn to ski off piste without having to worry about all the safety concerns due to the in bounds avy controlled terrain.
If you are limited to Europe maybe you can find a guide willing to take you out privately. I don't think any general courses open to the public will allow kids that young.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| Groups of kids often seen in off/side-piste in PDS with ESF instructors without backpacks and generally in areas in view of lifts or heavily used such as Happy Valley. I think this is quite normal for France. |
Certainly normal for ski school groups, yes, but actually even amongst experienced skiers going deeper off-piste the use if avi gear is very unusual here (in the PdS). First season we were here, before I was teaching here, the ski shop owner and ski-school boss invited me to join him with a couple of other instructor/staff on what turned out to be an epic ski day. Blue sky powder, we headed via Crosets to Avoriaz, then over into the Vallée de Mines d'Or. (We were down waiting for the bus to LG by 1115, first beer of many consumed at that point).
Anyway, we did a lot of proper serious off-piste that day, but I was the only one of the group wearing a backpack or with a transceiver. The logic seems to be that there's really no avalanche-able terrain, so why bother? Certainly these days I wouldn't dream of taking it for any of the lift-accessible areas such as those mentioned.
| Ozboy wrote: |
| The bigger worry are families that venture off-piste in un-ideal conditions with the dad normally leading the charge, kids struggling and the mum following behind. |
Well yes, but what use would the kids having a shovel and probe be in the event of dad getting buried? Not a lot, is what. Dunno if they still make them, but a few years back there were some models of avalanche beacon that had the search function completely removed, coming in cheaper, designed as a transmit-only device specifically for kids.
Edit: fooled into a reply by the thread resurrection, but comments still valid so I'll leave it here.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
but a few years back there were some models of avalanche beacon that had the search function completely removed, coming in cheaper, designed as a transmit-only device specifically for kids
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It's a good point. If the kids not capable of switching off send mode they are potentially going to interfere with the search. I've seen first hand a group doing avalanche practice going around in circles as one was still in send mode.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well the niblings (11&10 yo) do “Freeski “ every week as part of their activities and for at least this and last season they’ve been fully equipped with pack, shovel, probe and arva - and at least once a month practice search and rescue…
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| noodlehat wrote: |
Feel for them and us more park and off piste/ touring is in near future but having done no offence piste myself not sure best way to approach this...
Will any of the avalanche/ off piste / touring courses etc allow the kids on them? And if so which ones!?
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Unlikely unless you go private. In Verbier there is a Freeride club for the local kids but the standard ski school intro to Freeride has a minimum age of 14.
Look for a resort with marked itineraries / controlled freeride zones. There are also usually plenty of slopes below 30 degrees where you can safely play off the sides.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
but a few years back there were some models of avalanche beacon that had the search function completely removed, coming in cheaper, designed as a transmit-only device specifically for kids
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It's a good point. If the kids not capable of switching off send mode they are potentially going to interfere with the search. I've seen first hand a group doing avalanche practice going around in circles as one was still in send mode. |
I presumed they would have had an 'off' switch to avoid such an eventuality.
I now see that there was a lot of discussion, mostly negative, about it at the time https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=100974 so perhaps it's not worth raining the topic again.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@noodlehat, NZ is all patrolled/controlled inbounds like NA and if you enrol your kids in the right course - ie something aimed towards progression for better riders then they will likely be getting some experience off piste inbounds, but unlikely they will be doing any touring as part of that. There wouldn’t be much need to carry safety gear for that kind of riding.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
but a few years back there were some models of avalanche beacon that had the search function completely removed, coming in cheaper, designed as a transmit-only device specifically for kids
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It's a good point. If the kids not capable of switching off send mode they are potentially going to interfere with the search. I've seen first hand a group doing avalanche practice going around in circles as one was still in send mode. |
I presumed they would have had an 'off' switch to avoid such an eventuality.
I now see that there was a lot of discussion, mostly negative, about it at the time https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=100974 so perhaps it's not worth raining the topic again. |
Well all beacons have an off switch. It's if the kid is capable of turning it off in what is probably a very stressful situation where they may be panicking and not thinking straight. Like I said, I've seen adults screw it up in a no pressure training exercise.
I've been touring before where we've had a few relatively experienced guys and one backcountry newbie. It was hammered home to him if there's an avalanche the one thing you have to do is take your beacon out of send. Even if you just turn it off, just stay out of the way and let us get on with a rescue.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Well all beacons have an off switch. It's if the kid is capable of turning it off in what is probably a very stressful situation where they may be panicking and not thinking straight. Like I said, I've seen adults screw it up in a no pressure training exercise.
I've been touring before where we've had a few relatively experienced guys and one backcountry newbie. It was hammered home to him if there's an avalanche the one thing you have to do is take your beacon out of send. Even if you just turn it off, just stay out of the way and let us get on with a rescue. |
Well of course.
Yes, I've done quite a few 'real', i.e. with half-buried people, rucksacks&beacons on top of each other, etc. etc. exercises and seen people forget all they've been taught as well. Always have a designated leader to coordinate while others do the actual searching, is one of the messages we got from that sort of scenario. Assuming you have a large enough group, of course.
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At what age do you think kids are old enough to handle avalanche airbags?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Tristero wrote: |
| At what age do you think kids are old enough to handle avalanche airbags? |
My son got one age 11 and my daughter now has one aged 12. It’s quite heavy for her though so she’s rarely used it this season
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With respect to airbags I'd say mid teen purely based on weight and also having the presence of mind to pull when bad things are happening (which isn't a given even for adults) and I say that when I have one.
I've taken junior (9) touring in Canada and even to a back country lodge. He has a lightweight shovel and probe. He can do a basic beacon search to probe to shovel but like boarder I think we have to be realistic that if it was "for real" he'd be useless as he just can't control his emotions but the same can be said for adults.
I have a friend who I would say is adequate at search etc but they're an ER doctor and I've unfortunately seen that when poo-poo goes down (not an avalanche but bad accident) they just flick a switch and keep completely calm where as I was doing my best "don't panic".
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