Ski instructor won't teach beginner

A snowHead

A friend who is an absolute beginner is skiing with us this week. He is in the absolute beginner classes with ESF in Champagny en Vanoise (only ski school here).

After their first morning, his instructor essentially told him he can't/ won't teach him as the rest of the group would be too good. My friend didn't grasp snow ploughing in the first hour and kept falling, which was probably far more frustrating for him than the instructor, not to mention the confidence knock he has now gotten.

He was advised to get private lessons, which Esf has no space for this week. He was even told that after a 2h private lesson he probably wouldn't be back in the group.

Am I wrong in thinking this seems absurd for this level?

What would you try and do to help your friend in this scenario? If he gets a refund he's just sitting around all week whilst we ski, which is hardly ideal but at least he's not out of pocket. He can't get over to the other parts of la plagne for lessons as he can't ski.

Admittedly Champagny lacks in "true" beginner runs, but giving up after one hour and a bit seems a tad ridiculous. The group was 2 instructors to 10 pupils and they divided up by level into 1:5 which hardly seems like an over crowded class where the instructor cannot focus on someone struggling.

A snowHead

Folks like that are usually sent to snowboarding class.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The instructor was crap.

It’s always true that if the student fails, it’s because the teacher fails the student.

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Couldn't agree more about their shoddy standards, it's essentially them admitting they're not good enough at their job.

I believe Monday has a new intake of beginners with (hopefully) different instructors for this specific intake, which he will be joining. Hopefully this goes better, but it will say a lot about the other teacher if the new one gets things working.

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@Ruswit, also have your friend have an open mind, take the instructions as given etc…

Sometimes adult beginners have some hidden hang up which gets in the way of learning (fear of height or speed for example). While it’s the instructor’s job to work around it and help the student to overcome it, the student can also make it easier in various ways (communication, self-awareness etc…)

After all it is free

Were the other 4 in the group also complete beginners?

It is still French half-term, so there ought to be plenty of classes. Are there beginners classes in say French or German that he could join?

Generally agree, but before we tar and feather the instructor, how did this student's difficulties impact the others in the class? At some point they are entitled to not be held back by one outlier. The instructor's comments suggest this was the case. They could have been more diplomatic and also brought a work-around...for me, that's the transgression here.

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How bad is the student to be told "you can't come in the beginner group"?
With all due respect this is just one side of a story involving the 6 people of the group.
There's some element of responsibility to learn on the student.

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The instructor is right, when someone in a group is demanding 80%+ of your time they are preventing everyone else from progressing. I have seen this many times, if I have someone like this I usually arrange private with me for lunchtime. If that isn't possible we can usually find someone but not necessarily the same day.
What is the alternative? Carry on moving the group on at the usual pace until the person that isn't grasping it quits or worse injures themselves or someone else, or have the rest of the group complaining that they are still doing straight runs to stop on the flat after a whole week.

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This is precisely why the return rate for first time skiers is so low

Everyone is so focussed on climate change that they’ve lost sight of the fact that introducing new people to skiing and inspiring them to return is a far bigger problem

You know it makes sense.

I have coached some incredible people who grasp the principles immediately and closely follow the instructions to achieve the counterintuitive things you need to do to learn basics.

I also had a friend of the family who was utterly incapable of following even the instructions to get the boots into the bindings let alone get up after a fall. They played no sports, worked in a sedentary job, and were significantly overweight. He was a high flying research student. I gave up after a morning of get up fall over, get up fall over, get up fall over. In three hours we had moved 50 metres, mainly by incremental accidents. I tried everything, but I could not connect his brain to his lower body. My partner took over to give me a break and she thoughtfully abandoned this guy in a fog of complete frustration after two hours of the same. I resumed and got nowhere. We left him to gather himself at a restaurant and came to collect him about 45 mins later only to find him gone. No response from phone. He had tried to have go by himself, had slithered down the mountain for maybe 500m, out of sight, and eventually was snowmobiled off the mountain by the pisteurs at close of day. He recognised his limitations and went snowshoeing for the next four days.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

Impossible to judge, really, and at this time of year ski schools are often flat out, with no flexibility, for example to provide private lessons.

There were two instructors involved with a complete beginner group here. This poor chap obviously had a rotten time but it's hard to believe he was expelled because he failed to learn snowploughing in an hour. Few people will learn snowploughing in an hour when (as noted above) they have to learn just to get the skis on and off and move around on the flat. He kept falling over. And if somebody constantly falls on the flat (and almost certainly found it very difficult and exhausting to get back up again, and needed a lot of help) they are unlikely to make progress at all.

There probably are people who can never learn to ski without huge investment of time with a skilled and patient instructor. It sounds as though the feedback to the pupil was handled badly but if the judgement of an experienced instructor was that a 2 hour lesson wouldn't make enough difference to enable the guy to rejoin the group (which will also have been progressing) it seems fair enough that they told him that.

Very difficult, and sad. But without knowing a bit more, I'd be reluctant to blame the ski school exclusively. 2 instructors for 10 pupils is a very good ratio - but it sounds as though this one pupil would have taken the full time of one of them, even to keep him on his feet. If I'd been one of the other 9 I'd probably be resenting that. And as also pointed out above, we have no idea of the "attitude" of the pupil to the instructors and his fellow learners. He might have been ruining it for everybody. We simply don't know.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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@Legend., yep I get that. But some posters straight away blamed the ski instructor. When signing up there is a clause saying if you can't keep up with the group you'll be asked to leave.

After all it is free

And there were two instructors involved here. If a person in a group I was in had been treated really badly I'd be backing them up in complaining to the ski school. There were 9 other people involved here, whose opinions would be more valuable than any of ours. If it's just a case of shuffling round on the flat and learning not to fall over (and I'm not downplaying how hard that can be for someone with zero balance and coordination skills) it hardly needs a qualified instructor. Perhaps the friends could help? I've spent some time with some pretty hopeless folk, and we've had a laugh. I once had a boyfriend who was an impressive fell runner. Tall, skinny, type. He was keen to learn to play squash. I was no great squash player but my attempts to teach him failed miserably. He simply could not throw a ball up and hit it. No hand/eye coordination at all. Just never made contact. No doubt with patient mentor and weeks to spare, he could have improved just a bit. But that's remedial learning and not what beginning ski groups are really about.

I think we'd need to know what "My friend didn't grasp snow ploughing in the first hour and kept falling" actually means before we can judge the instructor. At one extreem "Hadn't mastered the snowplow and wasn't starting to go parallel after one hour" - poor instructor. But at the other "Friend hadn't actually moved and spent the whole hour standing up only to fal over in exactly the same spot" - probably justified as while your friend's paid for lessons so have the other 5 people in the group.

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This is very difficult to judge. It may be very poor instruction, but that seems unlikely with a 1:5 ratio for a beginners class (assumes 2 instructors are both equally useless). As other instructors have pointed out there are also some inconsistencies in the OP, especially about expecting a complete beginner to be able to snow plough after the first two hours. Many will get a basic glide and maybe a wee bit more, but many won't. With adult beginners in a group, first day is taken up with learning how to get the skis on, how to stand and move gently, getting used to have two big planks strapped to your feet. Then some basic principles and short gliding on a very gentle slope. If everyone gets through that it is a successful morning. I love taking adult beginners and will always choose that option if I can, so have a lot of experience of these types of classes.

I can remember three times where I have had to have a gentle and supporting conversation with a pupil to advise them that continuing with the group was not going to work. All three were middle aged, very unfit, varying degrees of poor coordination, and unable to complete the simplest of tasks (click into skis, side-step etc.). One could not physically get themselves up after falling down from a stationary position. The other two I took 1:1 for an hour after the lesson to make absolutely sure it was not some mental block that could be worked through. I felt sad for all three but it would simply not have been safe or efficacious for any of them to continue with the lessons. I advised they to enjoy the mountains in other ways, and gave a lot of information on the range of opportunities to do so, pointing out that love of winter in the mountains is the real goal and I wanted to do whatever I could to help them achieve that but as it stood that would not be on skis. I felt bad for them to some extent, and bad for myself as I so desperately want everyone to enjoy our wonderful sport, but equally I am sure that I made the right decision. I didn't see one of them again, but bumped into the other two a few times and both thanked me for being so considerate and were keen to tell me all about the views/walks/meals they had enjoyed during their week.

One time I had to ask an adult beginner to leave the class immediately, on the first morning. The individual was foul-mouthed from the very start and their frustration with being unable to complete the simplest of tasks (mostly due to being overweight, unfit and unwilling to follow clear advice) turned into swearing and abuse. Not only was that individual taking up 95% of my time and attention, the rest of the class were clearly very uncomfortable. I gave three warnings, then told them to leave.

I don't normally advise this, but to work out what is going on it may be worthwhile for the OP to take their friend to some pretty much flat terrain. Get them to manage doing their own boots up, clicking into the skis without assistance, and being able to shuffle around in a circle with skis on. Then simulate a fall and see if they can get themselves up. That will determine if they have the basic strength and coordination to at least have a chance of making some progress. Also explore if there are any mental blocks, i.e. what are they concerned about or scared of. And also if they display a lot of frustration when they inevitably find it hard. Otherwise encourage a love of winter and mountains with activities that don't involve skiing.

Last comment is that in general ski instructors, even the old and lazy ones wheeled out for peak weeks only, do not want students to fail. On balance I think it more likely that the issue lies with the student than the instructor, and if that is the case it may be possible to overcome whatever that issue is. But it is telling that the instructor suggested that a 2hr private lesson would be unlikely to succeed in that.

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I experienced this having signed up for group lessons in Italy as a beginner. I’d had one lesson in the U.K. and could snowplough and make pretty wobbly turns but lacked confidence. The rest of the group were better / more confident than me (one woman asked why I’d gone on a skiing holiday… least said about that the better!) and the instructor sent me back to the ski school to ask for 1:1 lessons. He said that he was taking the group further up the mountain and I wasn’t ready. I was upset but I understood the reasons.

I’d booked through Crystal and they covered the cost difference of my lessons since it wasn’t my fault.

I’ve had more private lessons since but arranged these myself, I’d always recommend 1:1 lessons if possible because you learn so much more in the same amount of time.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

@Ruswit, I do hope your friend had a better experience with his new class today! If not, I would suggest trying to get private lessons with one of the other ski schools in the La Plagne area, & see if the instructor would meet him at the top of the Champagny gondola. It really is a very quick ski over from Bellecote or Centre, so you might just get a yes... It might be worth asking the Champagny ESF if they could sort this out with one of the other ESFs in the area (I think they owe you a bit of effort!). Best of luck, & I hope it doesn't put him off forever snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Ruswit, Ask if Anne Flore is still at the ESF Champagny ski school. She is/was excellent with really good nuanced English.

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@Ruswit, possibly also worth looking at Maisonsport to see if any private instructors have 1-2-1 availability if ESF doesn't work out

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@Jo225, it's still French peak holidays - so little spare capacity in any ski schools this week.

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Instructor is right.

Ditch and switch.

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After all it is free

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Still, majority of people took to it well enough to enjoy their holiday in the mountains without having to shell out extra in a frig first.

Help!!

Ski instructor won't teach beginner

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