 Poster: A snowHead
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Not a question. More a rant!
Off to Banff in a few weeks time and trying to sort out list passes. Obviously I know they’re not cheap but why are they so complicated! The resorts aren’t on an EPIC pass or similar and anyway we only booked the trip at Christmas. And we’ll want to ski Sunshine Village and lake Louise.
So options are -
Day tickets each day. By far the most expensive
SkiBig3 area pass
Spring Season passes. Might actually work out cheaper esp for SV. But they’re not on sale yet (was told it was last week) and no prices yet. Not sure you can use the buses with those
But then there’s a Sunshine Super Card and a Lake Louise plus card which if you buy gives you days 1 and 4 free and discounts on day passes
Looks like I need a maths degree and an Excel spreadsheet to work it out
Why can’t I just buy a lift pass for our nine days!!!??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Definitely don't buy the SkiBig3 pass, that'll be the most expensive option!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Why can’t I just buy a lift pass for our nine days!!!??
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You can. Just go book a 9 day ski big 3 pass for around $1200. It just won't be the cheapest option.
Lake Louise spring passes are on sale now and work from march 1st. Sunshine spring passes don't typically start till around 20th March.
4 days at lake Louise with a plus card is around $387. Spring pass is $629. So plus card almost certainly the way to go. Suspect it will be the same with sunshine.
Cards and 4 days at each resort to get the free 4th day. Then extra day could be nakiska or kicking horse. Or just go back to whichever you prefer out of LL or SV.
You can say it's complicated, but at least they are offering a range of choices to suit different people. Honestly it's not that hard to work out which is best.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Different ownership of resorts so Ski Big 3 is the really only single ticket offering but you can obviously do better on price if you put the work in.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Used to need proof of living in banff to get a LL spring pass
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| jas915 wrote: |
| Used to need proof of living in banff to get a LL spring pass |
I remembered that too (maybe not Banff, maybe Canada). I think someone recently pointed out its changed. Great if so.
There’s also the bus if you use it, SkiBig3 includes the bus for free, others don’t. Add that to the calculation.
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Classic case of confusion pricing.
Designed to raise average prices.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Last time i went to banff in 2017 buses to the 3 hills were now free. Not sure about now
However back in 2010/11season they weren't
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North American Skiing is targeted at the privileged
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Classic case of confusion pricing.
Designed to raise average prices. |
Have to agree.
But it does cater to different uses though. Rather, making the increased price tolerable to frequent users.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just been to Banff, and had the same dilema.
The individual resort ski passes (supercard / plus card) work out the cheapest, but in the end I just did the Skibig3 pass for the convenience. This also includes the ski buses, tubing at Norquay and night skiing at Norquay.
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| Quote: |
Looks like I need a maths degree and an Excel spreadsheet to work it out
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Not quite a maths degree, but an engineeringy one, and we did build a spreadsheet this year to work out what to buy 
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You know it makes sense.
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The Sunshine Super Card and Lake Louise Plus Card also include day 7 free, as well as days 1 and 4 free. As I'm sure you're aware each can only be used in certain resorts.
In general North American resorts pass pricing models are trying to get you to commit as early as possible - there are often sales in the autumn.
For a more general discussion, there's a recent article, https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/02/27/the-economics-of-skiing-in-america, in The Economist about North American ski pass pricing models, particularly that of Vail Resorts .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
In general North American resorts pass pricing models are trying to get you to commit as early as possible - there are often sales in the autumn.
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Not dissimilar to budget airlines. Or gyms where you will pay a lot for single use, in comparison to a monthly contract. Lots of examples where that kind of pricing structure is the norm.
Honestly, it's not that unusual or complex. People just like a moan because it's different to what they are used to.
For the skiers in N America many have never had more options at a cheaper price thanks to epic and iKON passes.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| gryphea wrote: |
| Quote: |
Looks like I need a maths degree and an Excel spreadsheet to work it out
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Not quite a maths degree, but an engineeringy one, and we did build a spreadsheet this year to work out what to buy |
And you live there!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Best solution is to not ski in North America… 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FYI Epic Passes for next season went on sale today.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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[quote="boarder2020"]
| Quote: |
| People just like a moan because it's different to what they are used to. |
Not 100% correct. Most posters on here are Euro based who might visit North America for a period only 1 or 2 weeks.
Their current lift pass arrangements do not appear to have factored for this user type at all. As such it's stupidly expensive to obtain day/week passes compared to Europe or Japan.
that's why we moan.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="Mosha Marc"]
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| People just like a moan because it's different to what they are used to. |
Not 100% correct. Most posters on here are Euro based who might visit North America for a period only 1 or 2 weeks.
Their current lift pass arrangements do not appear to have factored for this user type at all. |
I suspect that the drop in revenues from any reduction in visitor numbers from Europe to NA, people who don't go because the 1 week pass is too expensive, is offset by the increases in revenues from those who are not in any way price sensitive and just pay the sticker price for the ticket.
So while it sucks if you're in that bracket of users I'd doubt the resorts are going to care, they're not accidentally failing to cater for you, they're doing it on purpose. I suspect if they wanted to compete with the Euro style 1 week ski holiday it would be fairly trivial for them to offer a pass bundled with a package holiday.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It's not that unusual though is it? My local gym is around £8 per day, or £24 per month, or even cheaper per month if signing up for a full year.
If you are skiing 1 week or less per year yes you will be worse off skiing in N America than Europe. Although really, is it even worth the travel of going to N America for a week? 2 weeks and the epic pass is pretty comparable to the cost of 2x 1 week lift passes in the big euro resorts. Plus with epic pass you even have the potential of some free Europe skiing (3 valleys, andermatt, dolomiti etc.). I'm fact if you work the dates right you can probably get by with an epic local pass which is cheaper than 2x1 week passes for the big euro resorts - but afaik doesn't include free Europe skiing.
Although there are other options - lake Louise spring pass for instance works out about £10 per day more than a tignes pass over a week.
For people skiing a lot Epic and iKON are fantastic. As someone who knows plenty of time rich money poor ski bums it's been an absolute game changer. Even for my friends living in whistler it's opened up the chance for them to visit other resorts they would have liked to but couldn't justify before. I'm sure the andermatt locals are not too disappointed that their season pass is now cheaper and gets them free days at other euro resorts.
In other news there's a new thread about when easy jet flights will go on sale. Imagine having to study when flights come out, book them asap, compare different carriers and routes to get the best price. Flying in Europe is so complicated... 
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[quote="Mosha Marc"]
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| People just like a moan because it's different to what they are used to. |
Not 100% correct. Most posters on here are Euro based who might visit North America for a period only 1 or 2 weeks.
Their current lift pass arrangements do not appear to have factored for this user type at all. As such it's stupidly expensive to obtain day/week passes compared to Europe or Japan.
that's why we moan. |
Oh, they factored it in all right! No matter where you are, they'll hammer you if they can get away with it, and the number of folks crossing the pond are apparently small enough that they think so. But those of us lucky enough to be able get 20+ days in, and to move around, they're a steal. I won't be paying the very reasonable price for 5 days in the Dolomites, it'll be "free".
For Epic and Ikon it isn't about skiing, it's about timing of cash flows.
If I were similarly situated, I'd moan too! But I also never cross the pond for just a week...the flight cost, including jet lag, need more time to amortize.
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[quote="Mosha Marc"]
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| People just like a moan because it's different to what they are used to. |
Not 100% correct. Most posters on here are Euro based who might visit North America for a period only 1 or 2 weeks.
Their current lift pass arrangements do not appear to have factored for this user type at all. As such it's stupidly expensive to obtain day/week passes compared to Europe or Japan.
that's why we moan. |
It really doesn’t make any sense to go for two weeks not get a season pass. Since there’s been several threads discussing Tahoe recently, take the Tahoe Value Pass (valid Kirkwood, Heavenly, Northstar) at $529 - 12 days riding and it’s $44 a day. Can’t really moan at that?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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For our European friends looking to visit and sample some of the "ikonic" ski areas in NA - Mountain Collective Pass is on sale now !
Great deal for a "sample/road trip pass" !
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I know they won't care; but we won't be going to N America again as we can't afford it.
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Tignes 6 day lift pass works out at £56 per day
Zermatt 4 valleys 6 day pass works out at £69 per day
Epic Tahoe pass would be 8.5 days to break even with Tignes or 7 days to break even with Zermatt.
Lake Louise spring pass breaks even with Tignes after just 6.5 days.
Honestly I don't really buy the idea that Brits are spending the money and time on transatlantic flights to ski for less than 7 days. If they are money is probably not of a concern to care! If you are going for 10 days skiing, which seems the norm, you may well be getting cheaper skiing than you would be in Europe!
That's before you consider that it's not like for like. Some of us would happily pay a bit more for inbounds avalanche controlled off piste, organised queuing, and flexibility/choice of having multiple resorts to pick from each day.
Only on snowheads could we hear the idea vail sets it pricing structure to alienate Brits Similarly gyms deliberately set their prices to target people that only want to go once per week.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Only on snowheads could we hear the idea vail sets it pricing structure to alienate Brits Similarly gyms deliberately set their prices to target people that only want to go once per week. |
If that's how you read it, I don't think my point came accross clearly. Put simply; the ticketing systems appears to be set up for people who are able to ski for multiple days over the season, but don't seem to work well for "one-off" or short term visitors.
I've never been on a Gym Trip vacation, so don't think i can comment on that.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Mosha Marc, yes but who is going to America for a one off day? Your point was you won't ski N America because it's too expensive. I've shown that it really doesn't have to be. In fact ski for 10 days (which I'd say is the norm for most Brits going out there) and you may well have cheaper skiing per day than in Europe. If you only have 7 days holiday, yes n America will be more expensive, but why would anyone bother to travel all that way for such a short time anyway?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Honestly I don't really buy the idea that Brits are spending the money and time on transatlantic flights to ski for less than 7 days. If they are money is probably not of a concern to care! If you are going for 10 days skiing, which seems the norm, you may well be getting cheaper skiing than you would be in Europe!
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That’s pompous of you to make such a statement!
While it may or may not be the case for Mosha Marc, there ARE Brit’s who come over the pond for more than just skiing. They may be visiting relatives. They may be combining touring of the dessert with some skiing. Or they may be over for work and would like to add on a week of skiing at the end of it… The list is endless.
You seems oblivious to the fact people have other life besides skiing full time! 
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 7-03-24 16:22; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Mosha Marc, it seems you’ve never been to a gym? (Not a “gym vacation” but to a gym near your home or work place) Gym membership works very much like Vail ski pass. Or perhaps I should say Vail’s ski pass structure must have learned from gym membership, because Vail came a lot later than such wide spread gym membership pricing structure.
The example by @boarder2020 is very typical of most gyms. A year of gym membership only cost something like 10 days of 1-day pass! So a member who visit the gym once a week year round will be best advised to get a yearly membership. One would wonder why gyms don’t raise their price to reflect that? But it works for them. And it seems to work for Vail too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Deleted as not relevant to this thread
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 7-03-24 17:46; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Returning to "complexity", there's another dimension: deciding which of those pesky Yank passes to get if you are going to need more than one. Two of my favorite areas are neither Ikon nor Epic. Mountain Collective is tempting but many of those are also covered by Ikon. Should I just get a Bachelor pass instead of....etc. Three spreadsheets in, still not sure, though all scenarios end up being about $2,500. That's what it costs for a season when you go where you want. With more discipline and less time, a local could easily get by for less than $1,000, and a one-time visitor for less than $700.
Any of you that are road trippers should take a real hard look at Mtn Collective ($605) as was mentioned above. Not selling anything here, but if so inclined act soon, while the "third free day at one place" offer is still available. Fly to SLC, hit AltaBird, Snowbasin, Jackson Hole, Grand Targhee & Big Sky, a beautiful and very doable road trip. On that itinerary, 2 days each, your lift costs would be lower than back home. Skip Big Sky and you could do it with just two reasonably-priced lodgings (SLC and Driggs) as well. And that's just one example.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
The food up the mountain is expensive & shite. The apres ski is expensive & crap.
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Nobody has ever tried to claim n America is better for food or apres. In fact if that's what your looking for you are definitely better off in Europe. Same for huge connected areas of piste skiing.
It's like leaving Japan to come to Europe and then complaining there's not enough powder days.
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That’s pompous of you to make such a statement!
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Actually kind of the opposite. I can't believe someone would be willing to pay so much and sit on a plane for so long for such a short trip. I'd rather just stay in europe! The normal Brit ski holiday is 1 or 2 1 week trips to Europe. Ime those going to N America typically do 10-14 days to justify the flight time and cost.
Let's say you are in Colorado working/seeing family and only have a few days to ski. Firstly maybe you can find some buddy passes of friends/colleagues ski. But if not the options are:
- suck it up and pay an extortionate day ticket price.
- make the epic pass work for you i.e. try and squeeze out an extra day or two there and/or plan your Europe trip to a resort where you get free days on your epic pass (fwiw if you can get 6 days in 3 valleys and 6 days in dolomiti superski that's already around $850 towards the $982 pass).
- go to one of the "cheaper" non epic/ikon resorts.
- don't ski.
But honestly I can't be mad at a pass that makes skiing cheaper and offers more flexibility and choice to the people that want to do lots of days. But of course I'm bias as someone that's time rich money poor and knows a bunch of people in a similar situation who have massively benefited from epic and iKON.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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But the gym comparison isn't really very meaningful, because the majority of people don't visit the gym for only two weeks in the year. Most people's gym equation involves balancing going say one or twice a week if they can, but with gaps due to holidays and work trips, public holidays like Christmas/New Year and so on. The choice of which membership is best is usually pretty finely-balanced between the different options on offer. Whereas for most skiers, we're talking about a holiday once, or perhaps twice a year.
In the US, the 'average' employee gets much less holiday than in Europe, although from my experience in California, most public holidays are deliberately scheduled for a Friday or Monday, to give people a long Weekend. Even so, initially, it's a bit of a mystery to Europeans that the US resorts do have such complex tariffs on offer alongside high day rates. But my guess is that complex ticketing works where there are large catchment areas for a ski area, like Denver for the Colorado resorts. And so you can persuade people to take out a period ticket because they'll come out for enough Weekend trips to make it worthwhile. And if you have to fly or drive a long way, and only get 6 days skiing once a year, then the day rate or 6-day option is something you just take on the chin as part of your holiday.
There's a parallel thread on Vail Resorts interest in acquiring Téléverbier, the company operating the Swiss 4 Vallées (Verbier, La Tzoumaz, Nendaz, Veysonnaz, Les Collons and Bruson). A whole-area single day ski pass for the 4V is CHF 77 [GB £69 / US $88], whereas the same ticket in Vail would be $299 (CHF 263 / GB £234). So naturally, one question is would Vail Resorts introduce such prices in the Four Valleys as well? Rather than reiterate the discussion, just go over to that thread if you're interested.
Actually, I think a more useful comparison of pricing models is between N.American skiing and UK railways. Initially, most people would say "Why don't just just have a single, simple day price?" but then obviously, if you didn't need to travel in the rush hour, you'd probably expect a discount. And if you commuted, but not necessarily in a predictable pattern, you'd like a carnet discount. And if you booked ahead .... and so in the end you get an incomprehensible mess.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Most people's gym equation involves balancing going say one or twice a week if they can, but with gaps due to holidays and work trips, public holidays like Christmas/New Year and so on. The choice of which membership is best is usually pretty finely-balanced between the different options on offer. Whereas for most skiers, we're talking about a holiday once, or perhaps twice a year.
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You are talking about british skiers. For most N Americans it's exactly like the gym analogy. The pass is aimed at those that are within driving distances of an epic resort(what N Americans consider reasonable driving distances is a whole other conversation) of a resort. They might try and get out to ski once per week. Or do a few weekends. They will have times when family/work means they can't. But now rather than be locked into one season pass (which in some cases cost more than the epic pass) they have a pass that gives them access to multiple resorts. They may also do a trip to ski one of the big name resorts that happens to be on their pass too.
It would be interesting to know what percentage of Americans with epic passes coming to Europe default to 3 valleys or dolomiti superski because they are free with their pass.
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@boarder2020, I have both Epic and Ikon, but I go to Dolo because I want to, and would anyway. My sense of it is that it is giving us the sleeves off their vest...a benefit hardly anyone would use, or build a trip around, since the passes are so affordable anyway.
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| LaForet wrote: |
| my guess is that complex ticketing works where there are large catchment areas for a ski area, like Denver for the Colorado resorts. |
Vail IS in Colorado!
In fact, Epic Pass for the longest time was only mostly purchased by the Denver area skiers (“Front Rangers”).
Even the subsequent purchase by Vail of resorts outside of Colorado, it was indeed in resorts with “large catchment areas”! The Midwest, Australia, the Northeast & Mid-Atlantic. So your “guess” is exactly the operating principle of Vail.
As for the pricing structure not appealing to Brits, it’s like wondering why steak house don’t have a large vegetarian dishes! It’s simply not their focus.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| I can't believe someone would be willing to pay so much and sit on a plane for so long for such a short trip. I'd rather just stay in europe! The normal Brit ski holiday is 1 or 2 1 week trips to Europe. Ime those going to N America typically do 10-14 days to justify the flight time and cost. |
You’ve completely missed my point.
There’re people who come to North America to combine ski with other tourist activities!
So their “trip” can be 2 or even 3 weeks long. But it’s not necessary ALL of the time are devoted for skiing. In other words, they maybe skiing. But they may not be in a “ski trip”. And their “trips” aren’t exactly as “short” trip as you seem to believe.
To imply they are not concern about cost just because they didn’t focus their entire trip with skiing every possible day, but spend their time enjoy themselves with other activities, you’re being quite naive.
Not everyone is a ski nut like you. I gave some examples, but you didn’t seem to believe those people exist?
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| abc wrote: |
| LaForet wrote: |
| my guess is that complex ticketing works where there are large catchment areas for a ski area, like Denver for the Colorado resorts. |
Vail IS in Colorado! In fact, Epic Pass for the longest time was only mostly purchased by the Denver area skiers (“Front Rangers”). Even the subsequent purchase by Vail of resorts outside of Colorado, it was indeed in resorts with “large catchment areas”! The Midwest, Australia, the Northeast & Mid-Atlantic. So your “guess” is exactly the operating principle of Vail. As for the pricing structure not appealing to Brits, it’s like wondering why steak house don’t have a large vegetarian dishes! It’s simply not their focus. |
Err … so you’re agreeing with me? I know Vail is in Colorado, I’ve skied there. I flew into Denver from St. Louis. Which I also know is in Missouri.
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FAQ
