 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi
I'm just about to change cars. At present I have a full set of winters on my car married to 4wd. In the spring I have these swapped to summers.
I'm considering putting all season tyres on my new car (which also has 4wd). Does anyone have experience of all season tyres - my current winters have been fab in snow encountered on a recent trip to Val Thorens, will all season be as effective and are they legal for driving in the winter in the Alps?
Any advice gratefully received.
Regards
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have found Michelin Crossclimates to be very good - year round. They have handled packed snow and ice very well in the Alps.
Previously had Vredestein Quatracs which were excellent on snow - but wore like they were made of butter in the summer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Loads (understatement!) of threads on this - do a search.
Short answer - yes, good quality all-seasons are legal and work extremely well with 4wd. I have used them for years, including places like VT during a blizzard.
Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons Gen-3 and Michelin CrossClimate 2 are widely regarded as the best two on the market.
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| frejul wrote: |
| Previously had Vredestein Quatracs which were excellent on snow - but wore like they were made of butter in the summer. |
I found that to be the case too. Solution: two sets of rims.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Crosbie wrote: |
| frejul wrote: |
| Previously had Vredestein Quatracs which were excellent on snow - but wore like they were made of butter in the summer. |
I found that to be the case too. Solution: two sets of rims. |
Surely the whole point of having all-seasons is that you don't use two sets of rims! 
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| Surely the whole point of having all-seasons is that you don't use two sets of rims! |
Indeed. I was off-topic, concurring with the excellence of Vredestein Quatracs as winter tyres - not all seasons.
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@Griggs, will they be as good as a full blown winter? No. Will they be good enough for 1 week a year skiing, with some chains in the boot? Sure.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons Gen-3 and Michelin CrossClimate 2 are widely regarded as the best two on the market. |
+1
I have Vector 3, they seem to work well, plenty of life left in them after 20k miles. Previously had Nokian winters on separate wheels, it's good not to have the storage/swapping faff of separate wheels.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I used Goodyear vectors, they gave good performance all round & lasted 20k miles on the front vs 22k miles for good quality std tyres (Ford Smax)
In a recent test I saw, for braking, steering & traction on snow & ice the scores were roughly as follows
Best winter tyres were given the benchmark 100% score
Goodyear vectors and Michelin crossclimates were about 95%
Std summer tyres were 30%!
You'd have to find the test yourself for absolute values, but the bottom line is that all season tyres are barely a breath behind dedicated winters but a massive improvement on summers
Disadvantages are a little more noise and poorer warm & dry performance
I took the view that I almost never go near the limit of warm&dry grip requirements, whereas needing 100% of available grip in winter conditions was a regular occurrence
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Hi All
Thank you so much for your replies - these are so useful.
Sounds like I'll be fine and Michelin Crossclimates could be the way to go - now to start the search for the best supplier.
Regards
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| swskier wrote: |
| @Griggs, will they be as good as a full blown winter? No. Will they be good enough for 1 week a year skiing, with some chains in the boot? Sure. |
Think you're being too hard on all seasons there. The good ones are better than that. I've done entire seasons with 4wd and all-seasons and never needed chains. I'd say the quality of the 4wd system makes more difference than all-seasons vs full winters does.
The drop in performance of the best all-seasons from a full winter on snow is 5-10%, I think, according to the latest tests. The drop in performance from a part worn tyre is much the same so in the real world it'll make no odds. There are so many other variables such as driver reaction time, quality of ABS/TCS system, type of 4wd, amount of wear on brake discs and pads, age of car (suspension sag, worn brake calipers, geometry out) that a 10% lab performance difference in the tyre becomes just another variable in the overall performance analysis.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm on my second or third set of Michelin Crossclimates and have always found them excellent all year.
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What are the price comparison on day cross climates v winters/summers?
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You know it makes sense.
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@Je suis un Skieur, I guess i'd also say, you need chains with winters as well.
Not saying all year tyres aren't ok, just they won't be as good as a full blown winter tyre. If I was just doing 1 trip a year, i'd probably go for an all year tyre rather than winter specific.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| swskier wrote: |
@Je suis un Skieur, I guess i'd also say, you need chains with winters as well.
Not saying all year tyres aren't ok, just they won't be as good as a full blown winter tyre. If I was just doing 1 trip a year, i'd probably go for an all year tyre rather than winter specific. |
OP is asking about all-seasons + 4wd. I don't agree that you need chains at all if you've got a good 4wd system. I never have and I did two seasons as a driver. 2wd - yes, agreed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Layne wrote: |
| What are the price comparison on day cross climates v winters/summers? |
CC2s are the dearest AS tyres by quite a stretch. More generally, AS tyres are about 10% more than a similar quality summer tyre but much cheaper than full winters.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Another vote for CC2’s and use them all year. Pretty much faultless in the Alps with 4WD and never had to use chains, though we have a set in the car. Now on second set.
Prices vary widely - usually we use an online supplier.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have CC2's on my T5 Volvo - never seen snow, but are superb in standing water, and I've had no problems pushing them in the summer. About the same price as the Pirellis 7000s the car came with.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons Gen-3 and Michelin CrossClimate 2 are widely regarded as the best two on the market. |
A quick summary of the main pros and cons between these two based on numerous tests would be:
The CC2 is the best all-round in snow by some distance (better than some winters)
The Vector is the best all-round in the wet by some distance
The Vector is the best at dry handling
The CC2 is the best at dry braking
I guess you make your choice based on your personal circumstances. I chose the Vectors because I spend far more time driving in the rain than I do on snow (and I got a really good deal on them).
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 23-02-24 11:49; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Cross Climate 2s on my Volvo. Insanely good.
Noticed no day to day difference from the summers that were on there and drove past people with snow chains on in Tignes without so much as a wheel slip in January. Incredible things.
I'd personally only have winters if I lived somewhere with a predictable season but for UK based, Cross Climate 2s are amazing. Not cheap but still amazing.
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Had CC2s aswell on our prior car. Very capable tyres. In tests they broadly perform in line with good winter tyres (though not quite not as good as the best).
The way I think of them is that they are winter tyres that you can also use in the summer.
They can get rather expensive for larrger rims though I suppose that holds true for winter tyres too.
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I recently had to get new tires on my old Fabia, so being a keen snowhead, I asked the shop to put on whatever basic all seasons they had. They put on some 'Laufenn G fit' for not much more than my regular budget summer tyres. I'm not really a car person, but the difference in grip on our damp and greasy roads is massive. The prime example being pulling out quickly onto a main road in a tightish gap. Normally this would mean a momentary loss of traction and a little bit of wheel spin, but now the tyres just stick and the power delivery is instant. It's one of those ones you didn't realise was a problem until its solved. I've not had them in snow, but ive had them in frost, heavy sleet and standing water and not a hint of wheel spin. The car drags less when hitting big puddles at speed too. I'll not be going back to summer tyres.
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I've just fitted CrossClimate 2 to a van after 8-9 years use on mostly mid range summer tyres like Kumho and Falken.
Findings so far;
- They are quieter
- They are comfier
- No difference in handling, but it's a van not a go kart
- Far better wet grip. I've used them in the light snow once where I am fairly sure my summers would have been stuck.
- I am getting 10% more MPG repeatedly on runs! Despite hypermiling and trying to drive as economically as possible at times I never got over 35/36 on the display. I've hit 38-39 fairly easily and over 40 once! This is a T5 in hilly terrain.
Looking back at my mileage and tyre costs the fuel saving alone paid for the additional premium cost of the tyres. Michelin also claim longer life, so we'll see but so far they should work out cheaper than mid range over the tyre life.
I got mine from Kwik Fit. Not my first choice of establishment but 10% off the already best price swung it for me.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 23-02-24 12:33; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Michelin Crossclimates 2 are the best tyres I've ever had on a vehicle.
Genuinely good all year round, provide great grip in snow and the wet. But also still quiet and provide a great ride.
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Looking at prices on mytyres:
budget all seasons start at just over £60 and go up to CC2 at £160 but maybe a better comparison is that quality winters and summers are going to be easily £100+. Nokian (brand of winters I normally buy) Snowproof are £124 and WR D4's an eye watering £258.
Summers a little cheaper but Michelin summers for example are £146 minimum so the CC2 stack up well but depends on other factors obv like how many miles you get on them and the effect on mpg?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I don't do many miles, but haven't noticed any real difference in MPG on a run, although now you mention it, maybe a little bit better than the Pirellies.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
Looking at prices on mytyres:
budget all seasons start at just over £60 and go up to CC2 at £160 but maybe a better comparison is that quality winters and summers are going to be easily £100+. Nokian (brand of winters I normally buy) Snowproof are £124 and WR D4's an eye watering £258.
Summers a little cheaper but Michelin summers for example are £146 minimum so the CC2 stack up well but depends on other factors obv like how many miles you get on them and the effect on mpg? |
My Volvo is a V60 with 19in wheels so the tyres are daft prices but CC2s were about £20 a tyre dearer than an equivalently good summer tyre. That was my deciding factor in that they're at least as good in almost all UK conditions from about Sept - Apr PLUS they're good in snow for the odd time we get it / I'm in the Alps..... and over the summer, they're only worse than summer tyres by a tiny bit unless you're getting into extreme handling (which a V60 isn't going to be doing much of, thanks very much).
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I’ve got Michelin CC2 on one car (4wd Golf Estate) and Goodyear Vector Gen3 on another (Golf 2wd Estate). The 2wd Golf with the Goodyears performed amazingly well in some fairly extreme snow last year and with 15k miles on them I would be happy to take it again, they seem to be wearing very well.
The 4wd drive Golf came with the Michelins and they still had 5mm of tread on them so I couldn’t bring myself to replace them before setting off to the Alps. Didn’t really have the same extreme snow this year but I did stay in a hotel that required a 6km drive up a steep gravel road covered in packed snow to 2100m where chains are recommended by the owners. I made it up ok without chains but I don’t think the Michelins performed as well as the Goodyears would have done.
Both sets of tyres have similar mileage on them but the Goodyears definitely look and feel like they are going to give better grip. The Michelins feel smooth if you rub your hands over them whereas the sipes on the Goodyears are raised and feel rough. The Goodyears are also cheaper and have better rim protection. The Michelins are VERY good tyres but I will definitely replace the Michelins with Goodyears for next year.
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You know it makes sense.
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Are Cross Climates 2's the sames as Michelin Agilis Crossclimate?
I've put a pair on the front of my Transit.
the tread pattern looks very aggressive.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've been happy with my Vectors bar a bulge in a sidewall needing replacement which was probably a pothole issue rather than a tyre quality one.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DrLawn wrote: |
Are Cross Climates 2's the sames as Michelin Agilis Crossclimate?
I've put a pair on the front of my Transit.
the tread pattern looks very aggressive. |
Not the same at all, the Agilis crossclimate is a van tyre with a far more aggressive tread pattern.
I have Crossclimate 2s on my TT and live in the Alps, and find them sure-footed winter and summer. I don't need to use the car apart from occasional weekends during the winter. If I did 'need' to use it regularly I would have smaller winters on narrower rims to take chains for the odd emergency.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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We’ve got cross climates on our Zafira - we do hardly any miles as we both work from home but the last couple of years we’ve driven to Alps so it seemed worth it. We also take snow chains - last year we actually had to use them in a heavy snowstorm but only cos we had to stop while climbing a steep hill and couldn’t get going again - reckon if we’d kept going the all weather would have been fine.
Got them at National Tyres who price matched the discount Costco were offering at the time (they were more convenient)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I’ve had Hankook 4S2 Kinergy tyres on my Volvo V60 for about 18 months. They were top of the Autoexpress test 2 years in a row but only 5th this year:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/product-group-tests/92863/best-all-season-tyres-tyre-brands-reviewed-and-uk-prices-compared
They tested not quite as good (then) as the CC2s in snow but significantly better in cold rain, which I drive in a lot more often. The Hankooks IME have been great in cold rain and on ice. I drove this car through Pennine ice to some sledging on summer tyres, soon after I got it. After a buttock clenching drive home, I got these and have noted that driving the same road home from sledging, the following year, I was able to chat away to my son instead of driving as slowly as possible, with full concentration and minimal control. Earlier this month I drove over M62 in heavy snow and worried about getting rear ended rather than losing control of my own vehicle, so longevity has been decent. Legally, you need the mountain and snowflake sign on the tyres, which I think all 8 tested above have.
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I use whatever all season tyres are available cheap for my van usually from protyre. I'm on falken and mazzinis at the moment, no problems in the snow in Leeds the other week but still got some pretty scary aquaplaning on the M42 although it was dark, I was too quick for conditions and didn't see it. I don't find braking hard as reliable but wear is good as the tread starts off so much deeper, probably get through 6 a year on 50k
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FAQ
