 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
i have a question about (child) courses with the ESF Schools.
Please do not open a conversation if the badges are improtant or not . Thats another question. My kids want them so there is no need to open a discuss about them.
Furthermore, as maybe you know English is not my mother Language. And i dont speak France. So i have to communicate with ESF in the English.
However , althouth during the last 15 years i didnt use the English so more (i had to learn the German from scratch), i understand the 99% from what i read in Egnlish. After many years studuing in Wales , i can understand almost everything except Wales of course.
However i cannot figure something with ESF.
Maybe someone can help me here... @steveangus maybe???
My son hat already the etoile d'or. He is 8 y old.
So he wants a course for the next holiday. He does not want private, he enjoy the group courses, even if he speaks only a littel English.
One option is the repeat of the etoile d'or, in order to improve his technique.
There is also a Team Rider Course , but it is available usuall in school Holidays, and the course has freestyle elements, what my son does not want
There is also the competition course. But here comes the problem. Some schools says the competition course is availabe from 10y old.
I spoke with ESF AVoriaz and she said also :
he can't join the competiotuion classes as he needs to be at least 10 years old and have a silver arrow.
and furthermore
I think there's been a misunderstanding: the competition courses are accessible after the etoile d'or, the competition training is only accessible from 10 years + fleche race.
Whats the meaning of this now?
a kid can take part in a competition course but not in the competition training?
is there a difference between these two above?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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UPDATE : i got an email from ESF that : the Competition stage, is not the Competition course. It's 2 different courses.
However if someone can explain whats it the Competition "stage" it will be helpfull (althoug not neccessary)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@turms2, In French "stage" means a race, ESF Schools usually run at least one of them each week. Their GS race is called a Fleche, results in that are graded into categories, silver is one of the easier results to achieve. Anyone can enter these races, just ask at the ESF office and pay the fee.
They may also run a whole week Competition course, which teaches race technique, sounds like they require kids to be 10yo and to have achieved a silver in one of their GS races.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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well i got one another answer from ESF
indeed the competition course is not the same with the competition training.
And e.g. a kid can attained a comp. Course but for comp. Training has to be over 10 y
After the gold star, it's the competition course or Team Rider.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@turms2, from this page:
https://www.ski-school-avoriaz.co.uk/children/
it looks like there are 2 options in Avoriaz after gold star: Team and Competition. Competition is for 10 years upwards but Team is from 6 upwards (and also sounds more fun to me).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @turms2, In French "stage" means a race, |
No, it means some kind of training / internship. "Je fais une stage" - I'm doing a course / training camp / internship / coaching depending on the context.
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| sugarmoma666 wrote: |
@turms2, from this page:
https://www.ski-school-avoriaz.co.uk/children/
it looks like there are 2 options in Avoriaz after gold star: Team and Competition. Competition is for 10 years upwards but Team is from 6 upwards (and also sounds more fun to me). |
indeed. But 1. Team is only in French Holidays available (usually), and 2. my son wants only race training and nothing with freestyle etc
But as i mentioned the Avoriaz ESF said that the Competition Course is available for kids under 10, but not the Competition Training
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| davidof wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| @turms2, In French "stage" means a race, |
No, it means some kind of training / internship. "Je fais une stage" - I'm doing a course / training camp / internship / coaching depending on the context. |
i suppose that compeition course is a normally course but competition "training" is something like Team - Race Training. PRobably for kids who live somewhere there and they belong to a club or something like this
In Germany there is also a different between DSLV und DSV.
The first is the association for the Ski schools, but DSV is for the Local Teams-Clubs, scouting, Talent Days etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@turms2, There may be a practical reason for the age limit. For the training they would want the kids to be tall enough to be allowed on a chairlift by themselves and not need an adult with them.
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@turms2, The club race training will be separate.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| @turms2, In French "stage" means a race, |
No, it means some kind of training / internship. "Je fais une stage" - I'm doing a course / training camp / internship / coaching depending on the context. |
XXXXXX spoke to you about the Competition stage, not the Competition course. It's 2 different courses.
I think it is as you said
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @turms2, There may be a practical reason for the age limit. For the training they would want the kids to be tall enough to be allowed on a chairlift by themselves and not need an adult with them. |
Maybe. No idea why.
But there is a point in what you saying.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @turms2, The club race training will be separate. |
i think the competition Training (or Stage) is something like club training.
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You know it makes sense.
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@turms2, you have a champion growing if at 8 years he is on a gold star while not living in an Alpine environment. He jumped over:
- silver star
- bronze star
-3rd star
- 2nd star
- 1st star
- flocon
-ourson
- garolou
- marmot
- blanchot
-piou piou
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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haha..not really.
He started with 2.5 and we live in Germany... 2h from Alps
In France he was direct to 2nd star last year, then 3d star, Bronze and he jumped the Silver Star (in Half Term)
They were a mixed Group with Bronze, Silver , Gold...and the instructor said if he is really good/fast then gold, if not silver (or nothing)
He got the Gold. If that was a mistake , no idea
I board and not ski, and cannot really say if he is for Gold or Silver
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 23-02-24 12:41; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| turms2 wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| @turms2, There may be a practical reason for the age limit. For the training they would want the kids to be tall enough to be allowed on a chairlift by themselves and not need an adult with them. |
Maybe. No idea why.
But there is a point in what you saying. |
Most French resorts set the limit for unaccompanied children at 125cm, which in my book equates to a younger age than 10.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DidierCouch wrote: |
| turms2 wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| @turms2, There may be a practical reason for the age limit. For the training they would want the kids to be tall enough to be allowed on a chairlift by themselves and not need an adult with them. |
Maybe. No idea why.
But there is a point in what you saying. |
Most French resorts set the limit for unaccompanied children at 125cm, which in my book equates to a younger age than 10. |
ok...then probably this is the reason for the competition stage etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| mooney058 wrote: |
@turms2, you have a champion growing if at 8 years he is on a gold star while not living in an Alpine environment. He jumped over:
- silver star
- bronze star
-3rd star
- 2nd star
- 1st star
- flocon
-ourson
- garolou
- marmot
- blanchot
-piou piou |
You don't have to complete all of the awards - you can skip some. My 6 year old (not living in an alpine environment) has his 2 star after 4 trips.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@turms2, this may be of interest - not sure if it's just Megève or wider...
"Competition initiation
Children who have earned their Etoile d'Or and are at least 7 years old can now try their hand at competitions!
Lasting 6 days, the Competition Initiation course is an opportunity for your child to test their skills and reveal their full potential.
Under the expert guidance of their instructor, they'll train in the Giant Slalom (Flèche) to fine-tune their technique, before competing in the Flèche at the end of the week!
The Flèche is a timed event that counts towards the Ski Open ranking."
https://www.ski-school-megeve.co.uk/competition/competition-initiation/
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi @DidierCouch
indeed...i just opened the ESF Avoariaz and said something almost same :
Two options are available to help children make progress:
> Competition lessons allow those who have just got their Gold Star to continue to make progress in a competition context.
> Competition training courses are proposed to children who already have their "Flèche d'argent" and who want to take part in more intense sessions. They are supervised by instructors who are specialised in competition: coaches, "Chamois" openers, finalists of the instructors' challenge, former high-level athletes.
Honestly, dont know if they made it now, or i didnt noticed it.
However today i wrote back to ESF Avoriaz because online i didnt find the Competition lessons
Sie answered, i opened the website and now there is both of them with explanations
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@turms2, sure - FYI Flèche d'argent/silver Arrow is a level of performance in the Flèche Giant slalom race
The Flèche
Giant slalom event counting for the SkiOpen classification:
- Test of about 40 seconds.
- Route comprising between 25 and 35 gates and a drop of 200m to 250m.
Performance calculation:
% allowed in addition to the base time achieved by an ESF monitor opener.
Gold: 0 to 15%
Vermeil: from 15.01 to 28%
Silver: from 28.01 to 40%
Bronze: from 40.01 to 45%
Dart: from 45.01 to 50%
https://www.esf-uk.co.uk/levels-and-tests/performance/
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So if a kid (through being remarkably talented) manages to beat the monitor, the ESF goes in a huff and refuses to give them a Flèche? Or do they kidnap them and forcibly enrol them in a National performance programme? 
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no idea. If you are a native, probably the second. If not probabl the first
Just joking
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@tsgsh, For the last Flèche that I saw, the opener was a recent World Skiercross Champion and ex Alpine WC racer, no kid got anywhere near him.
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@rjs Clearly cheating! 
I just thought it was odd that they allowed (anticipated?) 0% but not anything negative.
Seriously though, taking a second off the opening time dumps half the Bronzes into Dart and means that half the Darts get nothing. However, I've no way to quantify whether a 1 second difference between two different openers is reasonable or not.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Our local ESF has 3 options:
1) Initial stage competition, for those who've got Etoile d'or. Lots of bombing around the mountain, a day or two of gate training, a few runs of Fleche (GS) and Chamois (SL).
2) Later stage competition, once they're a bit older/better
3) Club ESF, which is for those who can commit to most weekends as well as school hols. Typically kids from Annecy/Geneva. NB this is different to the local ski club.
My kids did all their ESF badges, and then nearly all the race badges - I think my daughter stopped at Vermeil, my son reached gold (age 10). It's a high standard; if you get the chance as a parent it's worth paying your €5 entry fee and discovering just how hard racing is.
It's not just the moniteur's time they're up against, it's the moniteur's _adjusted_ time, allowing for their relative difference to the ?French? champion. A typical moniteur might have a 5% penalty, so their 60 second time is adjusted to 57 seconds to make it the French Champion's time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @tsgsh, For the last Flèche that I saw, the opener was a recent World Skiercross Champion and ex Alpine WC racer, no kid got anywhere near him. |
pfff...a piece of cake. But i dont ski so , i can not show him how it works
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| snowdave wrote: |
Our local ESF has 3 options:
1) Initial stage competition, for those who've got Etoile d'or. Lots of bombing around the mountain, a day or two of gate training, a few runs of Fleche (GS) and Chamois (SL).
2) Later stage competition, once they're a bit older/better
3) Club ESF, which is for those who can commit to most weekends as well as school hols. Typically kids from Annecy/Geneva. NB this is different to the local ski club.
My kids did all their ESF badges, and then nearly all the race badges - I think my daughter stopped at Vermeil, my son reached gold (age 10). It's a high standard; if you get the chance as a parent it's worth paying your €5 entry fee and discovering just how hard racing is.
It's not just the moniteur's time they're up against, it's the moniteur's _adjusted_ time, allowing for their relative difference to the ?French? champion. A typical moniteur might have a 5% penalty, so their 60 second time is adjusted to 57 seconds to make it the French Champion's time. |
are not the local Clubs members of Club ESF? or something like that?
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You know it makes sense.
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| snowdave wrote: |
Our local ESF has 3 options:
1) Initial stage competition, for those who've got Etoile d'or. Lots of bombing around the mountain, a day or two of gate training, a few runs of Fleche (GS) and Chamois (SL).
2) Later stage competition, once they're a bit older/better
3) Club ESF, which is for those who can commit to most weekends as well as school hols. Typically kids from Annecy/Geneva. NB this is different to the local ski club.
My kids did all their ESF badges, and then nearly all the race badges - I think my daughter stopped at Vermeil, my son reached gold (age 10). It's a high standard; if you get the chance as a parent it's worth paying your €5 entry fee and discovering just how hard racing is.
It's not just the moniteur's time they're up against, it's the moniteur's _adjusted_ time, allowing for their relative difference to the ?French? champion. A typical moniteur might have a 5% penalty, so their 60 second time is adjusted to 57 seconds to make it the French Champion's time. |
Ah, all becomes clear now!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| turms2 wrote: |
| are not the local Clubs members of Club ESF? or something like that? |
No. Local clubs have their own coaches, those coaches may also work for the ESF at other times but the organization is separate.
Some valley clubs may get the ESF to run training for them on Wednesday afternoons and weekends but that is still different to "Club ESF". Previously the valley clubs could use their own volunteer coaches but that seems to have been stopped a few years ago.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| turms2 wrote: |
| snowdave wrote: |
Our local ESF has 3 options:
1) Initial stage competition, for those who've got Etoile d'or. Lots of bombing around the mountain, a day or two of gate training, a few runs of Fleche (GS) and Chamois (SL).
2) Later stage competition, once they're a bit older/better
3) Club ESF, which is for those who can commit to most weekends as well as school hols. Typically kids from Annecy/Geneva. NB this is different to the local ski club.
My kids did all their ESF badges, and then nearly all the race badges - I think my daughter stopped at Vermeil, my son reached gold (age 10). It's a high standard; if you get the chance as a parent it's worth paying your €5 entry fee and discovering just how hard racing is.
It's not just the moniteur's time they're up against, it's the moniteur's _adjusted_ time, allowing for their relative difference to the ?French? champion. A typical moniteur might have a 5% penalty, so their 60 second time is adjusted to 57 seconds to make it the French Champion's time. |
are not the local Clubs members of Club ESF? or something like that? |
At least for us, "Club ESF" is totally different to the local clubs. It's a season-long "system", where you make one large payment, and you get lessons every weekend + about 4 weeks of school holidays. And a "Club ESF" jacket.
The local ski clubs are usually(always?) affiliated to the French national race system (FFS, an acronym that always amuses me), which in some way overlaps with ESF at least when it comes to race points and qualifications.
Once the kids are really good, there's two levels of national champs (this may all be out of date, it's a few years since my kids raced in the French system).
The first, confusingly, is called the Etoile d'or (but is different to the ESF badge!). You need a certain number of race points, which can be gained in regional races, or in Fleche/Chamois. You are NOT allowed to compete if you live in a ski resort, or your parents are ski instructors.
The second, is the Coq d'or. Much better number of points needed for this, or can qualify by doing well enough in Etoile d'Or competition. Open to all, so you're up against the best locals.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rjs wrote: |
| @turms2, In French "stage" means a race |
Sorry but nope - it means internship, or, in the context of sport schools, a week (or two) of training.
Going back to the age for competition, for the FFS (French federation) kids can start from 6. Heck, two of the kids in my #2's group (U are even 5 1/2. Or they can do "loisir", i.e. no race, and still progress.
I assume ESF has the same choice between "loisirs" (tainted freestyle, hors piste, whatever) and "competition" (Giant Slalom, then from U10 or U12 they start Slalom Special, etc.).
For all of these there need to be a lot of commitment from parents, if only because of the cost. It's worth it imho, except they quickly get much better than us!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just only noticed that Federation Francaise de Ski, reduced to an acronym but in an English context, could be misinterpreted.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| patrick! wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| @turms2, In French "stage" means a race |
Sorry but nope - it means internship, or, in the context of sport schools, a week (or two) of training.
Going back to the age for competition, for the FFS (French federation) kids can start from 6. Heck, two of the kids in my #2's group ( U8 ) are even 5 1/2. Or they can do "loisir", i.e. no race, and still progress.
I assume ESF has the same choice between "loisirs" (tainted freestyle, hors piste, whatever) and "competition" (Giant Slalom, then from U10 or U12 they start Slalom Special, etc.).
For all of these there need to be a lot of commitment from parents, if only because of the cost. It's worth it imho, except they quickly get much better than us! |
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FAQ
