 Poster: A snowHead
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8 or 9 in Austria
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I find these sorts of questions hard to answer. As all kids, and all parents, are different. And I would not want to just state what I have done with mine, as if that was the right or only way to do it.
All that said your average 15 year old is more than capable of skiing hon their own. Many younger than that also, but be aware that in groups teenagers can easily end up taking more risks than they should. That experience comes more from working with young people than my own parenting.
The 18 year old is not even a discussion unless there are specific physical or developmental considerations. When my severely autistic 19 year old nephew comes with us, an adult always skis with him for example.
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I would say that, excepting specific reasons otherwise, a competently skiing teenager is fine if with friends. I wouldn't let them go solo.
I let my two ski by themselves from about 12 ... but only in a well defined area so I knew where to find them and so that they didn't get lost ! A Scandinavian friend of mine let his daughter out on the mountain entirely alone from 12 ... but she was a very good skier, mature for her age and knew the resort layout completely. She kind of looked after my two sometimes.
My main concern wouldn't be injury (assuming that they are competent on skis) but them getting lost and ending up somewhere from whence they'd be difficult and expensive to retrieve.
A lot of this, of course, is down to the individual circumstances; you need to know that they are within an area that they can ski competently, that they know how to summon help if needed, that they have a degree of resourcefulness and that you know where to find them if you need to do so. I, I hope obviously, banned any off-piste excursions ... they had to stay on the slopes that I'd assigned.
From about 14/15 they were mostly allowed free reign of the resort and they sometimes shepherded my friends' kids of similar age who weren't familiar with the layout. However, to put all of this in context, it was relatively rare; they were allowed to do so but mostly preferred to stick with me and ski in a group.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Actually, thinking about it, they still do ... and they're 23 and 25 now ! We just enjoy skiing together.
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The OPs question reminded me of a conversation/thread that took place 20 or so years ago.
I mention it because one of the incidents was about a group of young skiers that went off skiing by themselves with their parent’s blessing. The teenagers knew the resort….but it still ended rather tragically.
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=1121&highlight=death
The particular piece in the thread was about Meribel.
Of course, accidents do happen. In no way do I believe one’s children should be kept attached to the apron strings…they should be (IMV) encouraged to be independent. However, I don’t think it’s over the top to discuss the risks and agree sensible guidelines.
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| Hils68 wrote: |
This question has probably been asked before but I couldn’t see a thread …. And the question is really open to all different opinions….we have two teenagers will be 18 and 15 next year.
They have more energy skiing than us parents and I wondered at what age its okay for them to go on piste for a couple of hours by themselves whilst we wait in suitable central cafe recovering our strength.
It’s okay for the 18 year old but the younger one ?
What do other families do? |
You know your children and I don't but I'd have been a bit sad if my 15 year old kids hadn't been ready to be trusted with skiing for a few hours without adult supervision.
In practice ours rarely did because we were capable of (and embarrassingly enthusiastic about) keeping up with them. But they did nip off for a few runs when 12/14 (albeit they were pretty good skiers by then).
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| Quote: |
However, I don’t think it’s over the top to discuss the risks and agree sensible guidelines.
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I don't think anyone has suggested it is. There is a low risk - as there is for adults who ski, and who can also get killed either through bad luck or as a result of poor judgement. That doesn't mean the whole undertaking was stupidly risky or that nobody should be allowed to ski.
Young men, in particular, do daft and risky things. Always have. They kill themselves and their mates in cars far too often. If I had a somewhat daft 19 year old son I would be far more worried when he was out driving a car than when he was skiing. Indeed, I did have such a son, but he didn't have a car......
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
However, I don’t think it’s over the top to discuss the risks and agree sensible guidelines.
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I don't think anyone has suggested it is. |
The quote is out of context - there isn’t anything that I wrote that suggested anything other than a point of view.
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There is a low risk - as there is for adults who ski, and who can also get killed either through bad luck or as a result of poor judgement. That doesn't mean the whole undertaking was stupidly risky or that nobody should be allowed to ski.
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The reference to an old thread (linked) was that even in seemingly benign conditions, where almost no risk was apparent, and loads of other skier’s tracks suggested no evident risk, a tragedy occured. Read the relevant parts of the thread.
One teenager died and another was only saved by his slightly older teenage sibling who yelled at him to stop (I knew the parents).
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I think we're on the same page - sorry if I didn't express myself clearly. We undertake, and let (or encourage) our kids to undertake, risky activities all the time. The fact that some of these decisions end in tragedy and heartbreak doesn't mean they were wrong, or that our risk assessment was wrong.
I just had an operation which carries a 1 in 1000 risk of loss of sight. I'm fine, and looking forward to the same procedure on the other eye. But if I'd lost the sight in that eye it wouldn't mean I'd made a daft decision, or that the "1 in 1000" was wrong.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Jäger wrote: |
The reference to an old thread (linked) was that even in seemingly benign conditions, where almost no risk was apparent, and loads of other skier’s tracks suggested no evident risk, a tragedy occured. Read the relevant parts of the thread.
One teenager died and another was only saved by his slightly older teenage sibling who yelled at him to stop (I knew the parents). |
The one thing that posters on this thread have consistently said is that the one rule that must be obeyed is no skiing off piste. I'm fairly sure that the Meribel incident you are referring to in 2004 occured under the Cote Brune chair above Mottaret which is very definitely off piste.
Yes, it's a tragedy but it's also confirmation that "no off piste" is a sensible guideline.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It would be worth double checking travel insurance. I think mine said that children must be accompanied by an adult at all times. (Though presumably a 15 year old with an 18 year old would be fine).
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If we are saying the age for skiing on piste is different to skiing off piste, what age is it for the latter?
I know debates have been had in the past, about when you should take kids off piste supervised.
These areas can be quite twitchy because questioning peoples methods of parenting is liable to stir the emotions.
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You know it makes sense.
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| paulrow wrote: |
| It would be worth double checking travel insurance. I think mine said that children must be accompanied by an adult at all times. (Though presumably a 15 year old with an 18 year old would be fine). |
I think that, provided you're on the mountain with them and know where they are within a reasonably constrained area, that you are accompanying them. I don't think there's a requirement to have them within eyesight at all times.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I would expect youngsters from secondary school age to be able to go off with steps of increasing freedom and duration as they prove trustworthy.
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If we are saying the age for skiing on piste is different to skiing off piste, what age is it for the latter?
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Unsupervised off piste without a guide? For me that would be not until they have spent a huge amount of time with guide/responsible adult and demonstrated sensible decision making and appropriate training, and not until they were over 18!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Layne wrote: |
| If we are saying the age for skiing on piste is different to skiing off piste, what age is it for the latter? |
I don't think it is about age per se, it's about experience in the environment and the ability to assess risk.
If you're a 15 year old local ski instructor's kid who's skied 3 days a week or more since he was 5 (and more than likely a fair amount off piste already with the local Club des Sports or similar), then his abilty to to know what is and isn't safe would be world's apart from the 15 year old offspring of a 1-2 week/year Brit holidaymaker even if he also started at age 5.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Layne wrote: |
| If we are saying the age for skiing on piste is different to skiing off piste, what age is it for the latter? |
I'm Priming my kids now aged 7 and 9. They know how to crudely use a transever. 30* rule and other basics. I'm not considering letting them anywhere near off piste without me. I'm laying the foundations though. We spend a fair amount of time skiing and it's part of my parenting curriculum "safety in the mountains"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Layne wrote: |
If we are saying the age for skiing on piste is different to skiing off piste, what age is it for the latter?
I know debates have been had in the past, about when you should take kids off piste supervised.
These areas can be quite twitchy because questioning peoples methods of parenting is liable to stir the emotions. |
I think that is a wholly different question and isn't governed by age since they'll always be accompanied. A friend of mine has just taken his four year old off piste (with a guide and on some very gentle stuff of course).
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Some parents are likely to be a very poor judge of what and when off piste would be safe. I certainly would be. But even off piste, at most times, is probably no more risk than kids cycling on busy roads, even if they are moderately sensible. When my sister became a single parent she said making this sort of decision on her own was the hardest thing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Origen wrote: |
| Some parents are likely to be a very poor judge of what and when off piste would be safe. |
I think it's also a Dunning–Kruger thing: awareness that you're a poor judge of when off-piste is safe is often a higher-level skill than the ability to judge whether it's safe. Or put less pompously: not every poor judge knows they're a poor judge.
I think back to a lot of the off-piste I did as a kid, solo or with others of a similar age and at least the same standard, sometimes a bit older. No transceivers. Certainly no helmets. No mountaincraft to speak of. On slopes that we knew even then were 'avalanche terrain', in that we knew that there had been slides on them, and that people had died on them. I guess we just thought it wouldn't happen to us, or didn't think too hard about the risk that it might, or the consequences. Maybe there was someone there who'd read an avalanche bulletin or spoken to more knowledgeable people about the risks and conditions, but if there was I didn't know about it.
I wouldn't do it like that again as an adult, let alone do anything that might encourage anyone to let a child do so.
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| JayRo wrote: |
| Origen wrote: |
| Some parents are likely to be a very poor judge of what and when off piste would be safe. |
I think it's also a Dunning–Kruger thing: awareness that you're a poor judge of when off-piste is safe is often a higher-level skill than the ability to judge whether it's safe. Or put less pompously: not every poor judge knows they're a poor judge.
I think back to a lot of the off-piste I did as a kid, solo or with others of a similar age and at least the same standard, sometimes a bit older. No transceivers. Certainly no helmets. No mountaincraft to speak of. On slopes that we knew even then were 'avalanche terrain', in that we knew that there had been slides on them, and that people had died on them. I guess we just thought it wouldn't happen to us, or didn't think too hard about the risk that it might, or the consequences. Maybe there was someone there who'd read an avalanche bulletin or spoken to more knowledgeable people about the risks and conditions, but if there was I didn't know about it.
I wouldn't do it like that again as an adult, let alone do anything that might encourage anyone to let a child do so. |
I think this is a bit of thread drift - don't think the OP was talking about off piste at all.
That said, I feel the same aabout my skiing late teens and early 20s. I was pretty ignorant about avalanche risk. No one had transceivers etc (this was 1989-94). We skied off piste a lot (I worked a season in 93/94) and the best you could say is that we generally stayed off the steepest terrain soon after a snow fall (although I can think of exceptions).
But my kids have grown up skiing off piste with me (and in the past with an instructor). With me they have always carried gear, done some transceiver practice, etc. We talk about the terrain, where the risks lie, how we are managing it, what we are not going to ski and why, what the avalanche report says and implies for our area, etc etc. They knew much more at 15 than I knew at 23.
Now they are 19 and 21 and will make their own decisions but before they were adults we had a no off piste without me rule.
BTW I was backpacking and high camping in the Lake District with my mates at 16, leading multi-pitch rock climbs in Wales when I was 17 and mountaineering in Chamonix with my mate when I was 20. So In the end if young people do the training, have a level head and want to embrace risk I would not try to stop them.
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The answer is probably whatever age they are and all goes well is ok, and whatever age they are and something horrible happens-and I’ve just read Jäger’s linked thread from 20 years ago and my heart bleeds for that poor family- isn’t.
We’ve sat watching our kids go up and down green runs on their own from when they were 4or 5, off on further afield excursions with friends and cousins of same/not much older age from about 10 or 11, and pretty much full throttle on their own from 13/14. All was ok.
My worry now is what the hell they get up to as young adults on the back country but I try not to think about that- or look at their posts of it!
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It surely depends on the kid - and how they (and you) know the resort. We've let our #1 wander around parts of Les Gets by himself since he was 10, just up a ski lift (a non detachable télésiège) at first.
At 13 he often skies without us but now has a mobile. With the whole resort as a playground, besides setting a meeting time/point, our main contract is "when you ski alone stay on the pistes".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Judging from yesterday, any age you like. The place was littered with kids of all ages skiing on their own. The vast majority were British. Ages ranging from around 10 - 16 I would guess. Many skied well and it was great to see them enjoying themselves. Probably about half, though, were completely out of control with lots of straight lining on red slopes in a plough with weight on the tails. We saw one kid fall twice in quick succession. And another career into a ski school group (no serious damage done thankfully). It was a bit weird as it was only yesterday that we saw so much of this. I wonder if ski school for the British kids ended early.
Anyway the answer is they can ski on their own when they are good enough and mature enough to do so safely and sensibly. Many parents seem to take a different view based on what we saw though!
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Legally I don't think you can stop an 18 year old from doing whatever they want - they will be an adult and 100% responsible for what they do. Whether they are with you or not.
Depends on how sensible they are. Are you returning to a resort they know? Can they read a piste map? Do all runs return to the same base, or is there a possibility that they might need a 100 mile taxi ride if they end up in the wrong valley? Are they going to stick together or perhaps split up if they have an argument? Have you given them the chance to lead the family group, deciding which way to go, and ensuring they stop to regroup? Do they have basics of the language? Do they have phones and can you track them? Etc
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If Dad or Mum is paying you have considerable power over what an 18 year old gets up to. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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^^^
This... also a 23-year old, and a 21-year old, and... Long may they be unable to afford to pay for their own ski holidays!
Oh, hold on a minute while I think that through 
In all seriousness none of ours are remotely reckless (although our daughter may ski a bit too fast if given a challenge). They do look out for each other skiing together and don't push each other too hard. I'm more than willing to pay for them to come with us, even if that usually means we don't ski that frequently.
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This thread is quite apt - taking our kids (10yo & 14yo) on their first ski trip this March and the eldest - aside from watching loads of snowboarding videos and thinking he'll be pulling all manner of tricks - has said he wants to go off on his own. I've said maybe; stick with the olds and the other family we're going with for a few days, and then may we split up and meet up at a specific time/point.
He rolled his eyes but I did remind him he's not exactly Magellan when it comes to navigating. I'm thinking a set of walkie-talkies may be a good investment
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You know it makes sense.
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Varies on maturity. My eldest is 10. Gave her a piste map with marked up instructions and directions, a phone and waved goodbye at 10am.
Haven't seen her since and that was two days ago. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Specialman wrote: |
| I'm thinking a set of walkie-talkies may be a good investment |
Not in the mountains.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Layne wrote: |
| Specialman wrote: |
| I'm thinking a set of walkie-talkies may be a good investment |
Not in the mountains. |
is it a no-no legally? Or is it more about range?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Specialman,Your average radio is normally all out of ideas once you get much beyond line of sight. You can get better, higher power units but they are normally into licensed bandwidth ranges in the UK and Europe - not to say you can't go online and just buy them, but if you get caught with them, you'll be talking to the authorities... you're better off with a mobile, with the added benefit you can geolocate the kids using Whatsapp or similar.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| @Specialman,Your average radio is normally all out of ideas once you get much beyond line of sight. You can get better, higher power units but they are normally into licensed bandwidth ranges in the UK and Europe - not to say you can't go online and just buy them, but if you get caught with them, you'll be talking to the authorities... you're better off with a mobile, with the added benefit you can geolocate the kids using Whatsapp or similar. |
Good point. After all, they do live on the things. Main worry for me will him dropping his phone from a chairlift, he is THAT type to lose it day 1 
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@Specialman Last encounter I had with someone with a walkie-talkie it was Rick updating his mates on his position in the toilet queue. "I am fourth* in the toilet queue. I am fourth in the toilet queue. Over". He started at seventh and counted down to first. Don't be Rick.
* I was fourth, he was fifth.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Most of us managed to hang on to our kids before mobile phones were invented.
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My now 18yo more often than not has his phone on silent, refuses to have the tracker app and deigns to respond to sms messages when and if he feels like it.
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Radios were all the rage for us until the EU made them unnecessary. Then came B....
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There are plenty of mobile phone companies still offering the same pre-Brexit roaming deals. Just don't accidentally ski into Switzerland but that was a pre-Brexit problem as well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Layne, i don't blame him, provided he's OK with you being unreachable if he wants something!
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@Origen, ha ha indeed. I didn't respond to a WhatsApp immediately the other day and he was like "hello, hello?" as if I am sitting there waiting for him to ping.
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FAQ
