Paper maps vs smart phones

A snowHead

What is the word on the street about paper maps vs smart phones?

I want to cross the Ardeche (on skis) and my plan is to get a paper map but do people just use smartphones for navigating these days?

A snowHead

I'd always want a paper map for planning (or a paper chart on a boat) because if you pan out to see a decent size chunk of territory, the scale is too small to be useful. I am absolutely hopeless navigating on any electronic device till I've figured out how to get the orientation right. North up generally, and especially for strategic planning, course up sometimes useful for close up stuff. But then I'm old and grew up with "North up". I find it difficult to orientate myself and get a good "sense of place" on a small screen because.

Sounds like a fun trip. How long?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

pinch & zoom on a wet screen does not work very well.
By the time you fart about wiping everything dry, you may as well look at a paper map.

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You can generally get the French topo maps in a weatherproof sort of form. Maybe worth having a map case, like a proper explorer.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I surprised you even ask the question.

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@davidof, didn't you post today about some ski tourers whose phone died in bad vis and got lost?

I find phone useful, often easier to use in the first instance but would usually like to have a map as back up unless going somewhere tame with plenty of traffic and with a favourable weather forecast.

For instance we did a walk on Edale. I had a paper map and had scouted the route on fatmap beforehand but mostly used outdooractive on the phone to track where we were. Missus usually prefers paper maps.

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In both the UK and Switzerland, I subscribe to the national map service (Ordnance Survey & SwissTopo respectively). This lets me download and print out topographical and geological maps of selected areas I'm traversing. This works really well alongside their respective mapping apps, which is always useful to find out if your actually are where you think you are. It means I'm not faffing around with a folded map of which 80% isn't relevant; or the scale is wrong; or having to work across two maps because the route crosses between them.

Perhaps there's an equivalent for France?

Personally, I think electronic map apps can be extremely useful, but only as an adjunct to a paper version which I've studied beforehand and also have with me. To be reliable, an app has to have the map downloaded and not be reliant on an internet connection. In practice, I've also found that it's much easier to use a tablet than a mobile if I really need to study the map in detail. I find a mobile screen just a bit too small if I need to look at a route or distinguish a lot of detail. But clearly, it's going to be more cumbersome to carry. This is more for summer hiking, however. Perhaps it doesn't apply so much in winter.

After all it is free

Printed map, much quicker than waiting for app to load (assuming there is a signal)

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I use iPhiGenie for 99% of my on-the-hill navigation these days. Paper map (and compass) in the bag for backup.

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Oh yes, the chart plotter is brilliant once out there and doing stuff. But typically we will sit round the table with a glass of something, after dinner, and get the charts out. Not if we're in the Solent, or heading over to Poole. We know our way round there. But I'm not familiar with most of the N French coast and looking at a great chunk is fun. It's also good for getting a macro idea of what the tide's doing and how it affects potential destinations. We're also old fashioned enough to plot a position on a paper chart every hour when crossing the Channel and we scribble numbers on a bit of paper to get an overall course to steer. But I'm glad nobody's relying on my navigation skills which were never great in practice though I was ever so good at the desk chart work for Yachtmaster when everything stayed still and I didn't feel sick. Embarassed

You know it makes sense.

@stevomcd, here's the link https://www.iphigen.ie/

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Planning is a combo of paper map and ipad map. Actual navigating is a combo of paper and iphone map.

On the ground, it depends on speed and what you are covering. "Macro Nav" is poor on a phone. If you zoom out the scale changes and it's hard to get a sense of where you are especially if you are in big featured areas (Scottish Highlands etc.). From doing Mountain Marathon style events and spending a lot of time "off path", a paper map really come into it's own.

However, when a phone/gps really come into its own in micro nav, where knowing exactly where you are, or which path to take from a confusing selection, really helps. This also holds true for poor visibility.

Do bear in mind, however, that phones have limited battery, maps need to be downloaded onto your phone and touchscreens are a pig to use when wet, with gloves etc.

A snowHead

If you need to ask and all that...

I use my watch or iPhone (with OSMaps app but also like the French IGN stuff) most of the time for quick navigation running in the fells / mountains (maps downloaded in advance) but always have paper backup if it's critical / bad weather / I don't know the area.

A snowHead

Trying to hold down a paper map is high wind is for real mountaineers! Shocked

(which I’m not)

Electronic as the first choice, back up by tried-and-true paper just in case.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

As @abc says - both.

A GPS linked electronic map won't just tell you exactly where you are (in case you need to direct rescue) but works almost as well when it's blowing a gale as on a still day. About as much use as having an electric toaster with you when you run out of electrons though.

A paper map will work for years without needing recharging and, depending on map vs. piste diagram and the user's map reading skills will get rescue close-enough to find you if needed. About as much use as having an electric toaser with you when it's chucking it down and/or blowing a gale though as it either turns to mush of gets rips out your hands.

When I'm skiing my go-to is the paper map - mainly because I can pick up another one for free if I lose it. A new phone, not so much.

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@LaForet,

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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IGN map, compass, gps/phone with IGN/FatMap for backup when you just want a quick location fix in poor visibility, pack a good quality power bank to recharge gadgets.

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Gpx track sent to watch is my preferred choice for navigation these days. Much less faff than both paper maps and getting a phone out a pocket (especially with gloves).

It's always worth having a paper map as back up for anything more remote. If you are somewhere busy with well maintained trails I probably wouldn't bother, although best practice would be to have it.

There is something enjoyable about sitting at a table with a paper map planning routes. However electronic apps like fatmap with easy visualisations, and all their overlays and features are just so much more practical now.

After all it is free

I am very much old school - paper, or preferably laminated for me. I can relate a decent map to the terrain much better than I can any electronic screen. But I am old, and have been doing it well over 50 years. I also find I can study and memorise a paper map far better than a device, so I actually hardly ever need to get it out. I find GPS directions take you to a position where if something goes wrong you don't really know where you are.

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Well that made me look at fatmap - I remember it coming out & my phone at the time struggled with it.
Seems they are now owned by Strava.
Are the Dots moving other fatmap/strava users?

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FATMAP + paper map. Usually send a gpx to my watch but can’t really read it without reading glasses which is an extra faff.

Usual plan is to just get lost and see what happens anyway Very Happy

Gotta say I don’t totally trust the avalanche overlay in FATMAP. It’s ok but it doesn’t do the level of detail needed to really rely on it imo. Also doesn’t give much of a clue for how dense the bush is or other stuff like that. It’s definitely a great tool but not a replacement for using the brain.

You know it makes sense.

@hang11, nobody is saying don't use your brain and adapt as necessary. But the same is true for paper maps. Fwiw I have very good agrrement between fat map gradient, GPS measured gradient, and measured gradients using poles.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

How do you work out where you are with a paper map in a blizzard with no viz of any landmarks? With Fatmap or similar it positions you accurately on the map - that is priceless!

A snowHead

Nobody's suggesting doing without a gizmo which tells you where you are, @BobinCH! My first GPS just gave you lat and long. Or more usefully, range and bearing to a waypoint you'd programmed in. Was still priceless! But personally I'd always want a paper map too, and would probably have spent a happy few hours with a glass of something, studying it and thinking about it. That's often more enjoyable than doing the actual trip..... wink

A snowHead

@BobinCH, years ago I did a winter mountaineering course at glenmore lodge. There was zero visibility the whole time. We knew where we were by carefully studying the contours, walking on accurate compass bearings and counting paces. I still recall that on the flat I had 75 on hard pack snow. The trick was always knowing where you are.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Being old, I suspect that a lot of young electronic-users never learnt to navigate in any way (even just thinking about how to drive from Southampton to Nottingham, or arriving in a strange city and needing to buy a streetmap to find your way to your hotel). So they have no geographical sense of place. And if they regularly use their devices "heading up" they probably have no idea of compass directions either. This doesn't have to mean anything clever, just something like "I'm definitely still south of Nottingham so why am I driving towards the sun? Something's gone wrong".

I learnt marine navigation when it meant stuff like taking wobbly bearings on a lighthouse you'd not positively identified, logging your speed (through the water) and course then adjusting for tide and leeway and getting some rough idea of where you could possibly be. etc etc. I've done that mountain nav stuff too - counting paces (having walked the mapped equivalent of a "measured mile" to work out your average pace length). And taking bearings on the man in front. Very laborious and I've only ever done it as an exercise, not in anger.

Satnavs are incredible. But I'm glad I have some idea of how to do it the hard way.

We had several people driving to my place in the Alps, who despite being told by me NOT to rely on satnav, decided I didn't know what I was talking about. When they ring you up, lost, or up some forest track strewn with boulders and fallen branches (my son, last Easter) but DON'T HAVE A MAP it can be difficult trying to decide where they are, and tell them how they can retrace their steps and find a sensible road. And to persuade them that even though the sodding machine tells them they are only 2.5km from their destination, they have to go back down to the valley, along a bit, and up a different road, and you estimate they could be with you in 40 minutes, and as they have a rented car from Geneva, with winter tyres, you don't think they'll need the chains.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

I think that in the olden days, most people were aware that navigation could be difficult in mountains (or at sea) and that you had to "learn a lot" to do it safely. Or go with more experienced people. Or not bite off more than you can chew. Or know when to give up, or modify an ambitious plan in the light of the weather forecast. I did all those things, aware that despite my theoretical knowledge and very high marks in the Yachtmaster theory exam (I am that sort of learner), recognise the lights of a trawler with its nets fast upon an obstruction and tie a one-handed bowline, I was very inexperienced and needed to keep myself and my family safe.

There are now hugely more people out on the hills, even in really hazardous areas like the Cairngorms, and I bet many are just relying on electronics, and don't know what they don't know. They might not even be that good with the electronics.

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@davidof,

I used to very purist about paper maps and avoiding the crutch of GPS mapping but in the last few years I've realised how valuable it is in complex terrain and poor vis. Even the ability to zoom in on a screenshot of a complex area is useful (when you've got loads of shading and contours on a 1:10k). But I'd still never be without a paper map and compass.

Help!!

Paper maps vs smart phones

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