 Poster: A snowHead
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I haven’t been able to alpine ski since 2016 because of health reasons - I would have significant difficulty carrying heavy skis in big heavy boots between lifts and accommodation ; I’d struggle to maintain mental focus while skiing steeper stuff to make sure I didn’t injure myself .
I am soooooooo missing skiing, but it would be stupid for me to try to do so.
I am starting to wonder whether I could manage some x-country skiing albeit mainly x-country ski-walking.
Where does the collective knowledge of Snowheads suggest I investigate ?
Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bessans, located Maurienne valley https://www.goxski.com/bessans a dedicated xc village with extensive facilities.
Lovely valley to visit without even skiing too, good cost, food, accessibility etc.
Also Praz D Lys has dedicated facilities oriented around the Village centre with very similar attributes to Bessans in cost etc.
Both super relaxed locations, no lifts needed at all, very worthwhile in considering the discipline.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If it’s only lifting heavy items that stops you from alpine skiing, xc skiing would eliminate that issue. But not knowing what else is going on, I can’t say if you’ll enjoy xc skiing (or ski-walking as you put it) or not.
I’ve only been to one place, St Moritz. I’d say it’s a great place to xc ski. And if you find out you don’t care for xc skiing after all, there’re loads of other things to do.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 19-01-24 22:51; edited 1 time in total
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Les Saisies. The XC area is at sufficiently high altitude as to be pretty snow sure. (starting around 1600m). In so many places the XC tracks are down in the valley. Lessons readily available from ESF or the ESI and strongly recommended even if you have decided on "classic" style. It's harder than it might seem and you will definitely have to be prepared to fall a lot unless you have spectacularly good balance.
If you just want to walk, I'd recommend snowshoes rather than XC skis. As our first instructor kept reminding us when we were tempted just to shuffle along "c'est un sport de glisse!"
If you decided on a bit of gentle downhill skiing Les Saisies would be ideal for that too - I'd strongly recommend you rent touring boots, much lighter!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Places I've been to in France.
I'd agree with the above mention of Bessans which at the head of the Maurienne valley is lovely though slightly hemmed in by high peaks.
Slightly further down the valley Solieres Sardieres is also attractive with an open outlook.
If you have a car Briancon is a pleasant town with great xcountry in the Valle de la Claree and also up at Cervieres. Good areas up at Monetier and further out.
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| pam w wrote: |
If you just want to walk, I'd recommend snowshoes rather than XC skis.
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I found “walking” in snowshoe rather awkward in comparison to cross country skis. For people who already know how to ski, it’s pretty natural to shuffle the two long planks forward and backward. Duck legging on snowshoes, not so much.
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I was used to skiing, but found learning XC skiing harder than learning to snowboard. OK to shuffle along on the flat, but a bit pointless and with snowshoes you don't fall over and can leave the "beaten track". I fell over a lot when learning XC skiing - even the flat bits are tricky when icy, and there aren't many flat bits - mostly you are going up (hard work) or down (easy enough in tracks on a gentle gradient but I found the steeper bits where the tracks disappeared really difficult - exposed the weakness of my snowplough technique!)
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| pam w wrote: |
| I was used to skiing, but found learning XC skiing harder than learning to snowboard. OK to shuffle along on the flat, but a bit pointless and with snowshoes you don't fall over and can leave the "beaten track". I fell over a lot when learning XC skiing - even the flat bits are tricky when icy, and there aren't many flat bits - mostly you are going up (hard work) or down (easy enough in tracks on a gentle gradient but I found the steeper bits where the tracks disappeared really difficult - exposed the weakness of my snowplough technique!) |
I found the downhill bits in tracks even scarier than out of tracks, I had less directional control. Good fun but not easy.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 19-01-24 23:05; edited 1 time in total
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@pam w, I don’t know enough about where you ski. But in St Moritz, the tracks are in the valley. Quite flat for quite a long while. In fact, a bit too flat for my taste. But brilliant for beginners.
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Boring though, especially if you just shuffle along. I,d rather just go for a walk! My XC ski experience was in Les Saisies - one of the best places in France. But challenging - green, blue, red and black slopes, and even the green ones aren't flat.
As a beginner XC skier in Les Saisies, on the classic tracks, I would constantly be overtaken by better and fitter skiers who would just step out of the tracks and overtake. And the best and fittest, of course, were skating. So many very beautiful bodies, many of them belonging to really quite elderly people.
In all I had three weeks of lessons, over several years, and was never very good. Lots of exercises like wearing just one ski and then maximising the "glide". Or doing little step turns on downhill bends. I was hopeless but it was good exercise and a very beautiful area.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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What’s “boring” for experienced skier might be just perfect for beginners. Or vice versa.
(I recognize that difference in perspective when I started skating. I couldn’t climb anything that’s not dead flat. But I was happy enough to glide along on the flat).
I would go a bit further to suggest “ski-shuffling” is the most effortless activity there is. Even normal walking, one needs to pick up one foot a time and move it forward. With skis, one only needs to slide it forward. No effort whatsoever. Not going fast obviously. But that’s fine for some. (And with fishscale or skins, slight inclines can be easily “walk” up per normal)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I was used to skiing, but found learning XC skiing harder than learning to snowboard. OK to shuffle along on the flat, but a bit pointless and with snowshoes you don't fall over and can leave the "beaten track". I fell over a lot when learning XC skiing - even the flat bits are tricky when icy, and there aren't many flat bits - mostly you are going up (hard work) or down (easy enough in tracks on a gentle gradient but I found the steeper bits where the tracks disappeared really difficult - exposed the weakness of my snowplough technique!) |
That’s interesting to hear! I’ve found it to be just the opposite, for in the traditional style at least the only thing one has to do is to stand on the ski, both of them most of the time and then just push from the core, shoulders and arms. No edging, little dynamic balancing etc. involved. Just push and glide, maybe add a bit of heel lift to get your weight behind the push (or going uphill to gain traction under the ball of your foot). Though skating is more difficult than trad for failures in form and technique have a much greater impact on performance and how taxing it feels in that discipline..
But even skating compared to alpine where one has to almost simultaneously master edging from the feet, toppling to the inside of the turn and towards the fall line like falling to an abyss, softening and shortening of the inside leg, loading the outside and having the strength to resist the forces, closing the ankles and pulling the feet under, angulating the upper body and what not… while generally moving much faster than in XC. Technically to me it seems to be on another level than XC that just comes naturally (at least the traditional style). And while I haven’t tried snowboarding I’d presume it’s not any easier than alpine skiing.
To clarify I’m by no means saying that what you’ve felt is wrong, just that I find it interesting!
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| pam w wrote: |
| I was used to skiing, but found learning XC skiing harder than learning to snowboard. OK to shuffle along on the flat, but a bit pointless and with snowshoes you don't fall over and can leave the "beaten track". I fell over a lot when learning XC skiing - even the flat bits are tricky when icy, and there aren't many flat bits - mostly you are going up (hard work) or down (easy enough in tracks on a gentle gradient but I found the steeper bits where the tracks disappeared really difficult - exposed the weakness of my snowplough technique!) |
That's similar to my experience. I tried XC once in Norway in 2017. I just couldn't get the skis to respond, no control really, kept falling, almost frightening going downhill. It was a relief to return to downhill (which I've done for years). I won't try it again. I don't mean to put off sev112 but XC may not be that much "easier"- just my experience.
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You know it makes sense.
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| billb wrote: |
| but XC may not be that much "easier"- just my experience. |
Stay away from them hills! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Ravensburger, well if you found no problem going downhill and round bends on skinny XC skis with no edges, you must be a natural! I found it challenging and our instructor would tell us when to take skis off and walk down when he considered a gradient too steep for us. And I completely disagree that no "dynamic balance" is required. The gliding certainly requires balance and the exercises we did on one ski, to improve that, weren't easy. Where there are prepared tracks, and when the snow is in good condition, just getting around in the tracks is easy enough - and a "demi chasse neige", with one ski in the track and the other out, slowing you down, isn't difficult. But I found a full snowplough, when the tracks disappear, difficult to get right on anything other than a very gentle gradient. One lesson we did snowplough "slaloms" round little markers, and I struggled with that too.
The local downhill ski club, with some really whizzy kids, spent a fair bit of time in the XC area, to improve their balance.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Given what sev112 has said I would favour Bessans over les Saisies. Bessans is almost completely flat and will be easier. It has the most reliable snow of all the French areas. You could catch the train to Modane if they get the line reopened for next year (not certain).
I'm told Groms is a good bet. Davos is also not too challenging and quite a few of the trails are close to town.
Livigno is another idea. I've not cross country skied at St Moritz but the I did spend a lot of time there one year and it looks like a good choice.
Switerland is good as most resort have train access.
From the UK Oslo is easy to reach.
> Technically to me it seems to be on another level than XC that just comes naturally
Ravensburger> Technically classic is harder to master than skating and only a minority do either properly. For diagonal stride you need to be able to transfer your weight fully from ski to ski as well as gliding on that ski and not many people can manage this. We're talking about skiing properly. Don't get me wrong, you may have absolutely nailed the technique, being from Finland and all that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
Ravensburger> Technically classic is harder to master than skating and only a minority do either properly. For diagonal stride you need to be able to transfer your weight fully from ski to ski as well as gliding on that ski and not many people can manage this. We're talking about skiing properly. Don't get me wrong, you may have absolutely nailed the technique, being from Finland and all that. |
I take your word for it - I’ve never studied XC-technique. But to me it seems that most people hang their weight a little bit back when skating, tend to mostly do the offset technique even on the flats or at least change to it in the slightest uphill and struggle a bit with timing when doing the one-skate (I mean the one where there’s a push on every glide - so do I in fact). That weight back gets tiring.
Like on my local tracks I’d say that most adults that look like they ski more than a couple of times a year do classic pretty well, but out of the skating recreational skiers the percentage of technically actually good skiers is a bit lower. Hence my claim that skating would be harder.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@abc, agree St Moritz or Engelberg would be a good spot
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@Ravensburger, sounds just like my skating technique reading that, mixture of various techniques depending on the terrain and day of the week 
@sev112, down in my part of the world, Hautes Alpes we have so many XC areas close together. Some part of a normal ski resort domain, like Serre Chevalier, and others that are purely XC such as Nevache Vallée de la Clarée
https://www.nordicalpesdusud.com/
Take a look at
https://www.nordicalpesdusud.com/
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Ravensburger wrote: |
But even skating compared to alpine where one has to almost simultaneously master edging from the feet, toppling to the inside of the turn and towards the fall line like falling to an abyss, softening and shortening of the inside leg, loading the outside and having the strength to resist the forces, closing the ankles and pulling the feet under, angulating the upper body and what not… while generally moving much faster than in XC. Technically to me it seems to be on another level than XC that just comes naturally (at least the traditional style). And while I haven’t tried snowboarding I’d presume it’s not any easier than alpine skiing.
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I too, found downhill skiing movements far more complex and timing sensitive. But we expect that… 
The trouble many people have with cross country skiing is they underestimate the need for proper technique.
Almost everyone who started downhill skiing takes lessons. Or at least take some pointers from their companions. But cross country skiing? “Oh, just go do it” 
As a result, a lot of cross country skiers have poor techniques. That said, it doesn’t really matter all that much for most of them. They’re not racing. So going slower and expanding more effort isn’t going to stop them from doing it. Unlike in downhill skiing, where inability to control speed and trajectory in even moderate terrain would surely stop many from continuing on.
In short, if people spend as much time learning to cross country ski as they’ve done in downhill skiing, they’d be rather more decent skiers on the skinny skis than they’re on downhill skis. @pam w mentioned the difficulty of going downhill on skinny skis attached only on the toe. But how many times you repeat a downhill section on xc skis? As you surely done a lot of on downhill skis? Wouldn’t you think that if you spend that much time practicing the various technique in going downhill on xc skis, you would have a lot less difficulty as a result?
I can get down just about any kind of terrain, on either kind of skis. But I have to admit I’d spent a great deal more time/money on lessons to achieve that on downhills skis than on skinny skis.
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Going down hill on xc skis, be it classic or skate, is not fun. Well probably is with practice.
Trying to snowplough to stop is a lot harder.
I’d describe my attempts as walk-shuffle, but I enjoy it and it makes a change.
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I'd have a look at the Scandinavian countries - XC is basically their national sport
We visited Levi (North Finland) and our Finnish friend helped us hire kit and then gave us some basic lessons. Definitely take lessons - going down hill and around a corner is freighting! Some information on Levi https://www.goxski.com/levi
Actually, being in the middle of a Finnish forest, listening to the birds tweeting was magical
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Seefeld, Livigno, Ski Amade or Banff.
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I actually think the snowshoe suggestion is pretty good. You can basically go wherever you want and much less technical than X country skiing. Especially if you are not looking to do it as a workout and more just to enjoy the scenery.
If I was going to do a X country skiing trip I think I'd look at the Scandinavian countries. Norway in particular seems to have lots of km of groomed trails, and even huts to allow for some back country multiday style trips. Think in your position I'd rather be somewhere like that away from a traditional resort which could be a little depressing as I'd be looking at the downhill skiers thinking, that's what I'd rather be doing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks all, this is immensely useful for me.
I am not sure what happened to my subsidiary post which said I did a few hours XC in the Jura with some friends who live there about a decade or so back, and managed to do some walking, some shuffling , even skating went well! Gentle straight downhills we’re also ok, but the slightly steeper ones, or as mentioned the one that goes round a corner were not good! It helped it was beautiful spring conditions (not icy and not too slushy), so perfect to stop quite often and take in the peace, the surroundings, have a picnic etc.
My struggle is that at the moment a 1 hr walk (back home in the Uk) is my limit at a time, perhaps one in the morning and maybe one in the afternoon;and I can be a bit of a liability if I’m on my own. So lessons are an absolute must, and I want to be able to do it with my wife so it’s going to be easy lessons and easy tracks/courses. Adding some snowshoeing sounds a good idea. Finding a location that would allow other enjoyment would be good when knackered
My presumption is that lift passes are less of a “thing” and that XC skis and soft boots are less expensive to hire ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Goms valley, Switzerland
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| sev112 wrote: |
My presumption is that lift passes are less of a “thing” and that XC skis and soft boots are less expensive to hire ? |
Lift pass is really not a thing.
I think hiring of equipment is cheaper than downhill. But I don’t really know as I have my own.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yes, where there is a charge for lift passes it will be not a lot. And hiring the equipment is cheaper, too, though classic and skating equipment is different. Bessans sounds great and would be my choice. Hope you have a good time.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Apologies for the thread hijack, but does anyone have an experience of XC at Val Ferret in Courmayeur? My wife is looking at places to learn with a friend, travelling from Milan. As it's in the valley, I'm unsure how snowsure it is? And reading the thread, I think they would rather learn somewhere flattish to begin with, rather than somewhere with lots of downs to contend with.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@sev112, I haven’t skied other places besides St Moritz. So take what I say with a grain of salt. But I’ll say it could work quite well within your limitation.
The trail network is quite extensive. A large chunk of the trails are in the valley. So flat’ish and not too demanding.
Better yet, the trails wind around the valley and connects the many villages along the way. So, you can ski from one village to the next and stop to have a long and relaxing lunch. I think the villages aren’t too far apart. You should be able to do that in under an hour of casual skiing.
Further sweeten the appeal, thanks to the Swiss love affair with trains, almost all of the villages are linked by train. So if you don’t feel energetic enough to ski back after your relaxed lunch, you can simply hop on the train to get back to where you started. On top of the rail, there’re also buses you could utilize to extend your reach. Both the train and the buses run quite frequently.
Pontresina is the village where cross country skiers congregate. So ski rental and lesson options are most extensive there. It’s a lovely village on the rail line. Find a lodging within walking distance to the train station, you’ll be free to roam all over the valley. On days you don’t feel like skiing, glitzy St Moritz is easily reachable, yet without having to shell out for big ticket lodging.
Having blown the trumpet for St Moritz, I would also strongly suggest you look into the Nordic countries as suggested by others. My local xc ski club had run annual trips to Norway/Finland. The pictures my club mates shown were very attractive. One of those days, I’ll have to make my ways over there to enjoy it myself.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I stumbled across Janteloppet in Norway last week and whilst it definitely sounds a bit too intense, the fact that I met a Japanese cross-country skier and three Germans all out there (and not to take part in that either), suggests me to that Norway is deinitely yes, way for XC!
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