 Poster: A snowHead
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I decided to rent some skis at the shop as it was a big powder day at Avoriaz and I left my fatter touring skis at home. I asked for Din 10 as that's what I use for my resort skis and they made me sign something.
3rd run was a perfect untouched valley (as I know the resort well), the left ski came off when I was crossing a river on the flat. I thought it was odd but maybe down to the terrain. But the run after, left ski just fell off on the piste. Unfortunately it was hard underneath and I was going relatively fast. I've never had this happen as there was no warning or anything. My resort skis can take a beating and they've only ever come off when I really need them to come off. Even my ski touring skis (din  never come off but i don't do jumps/drops on them. I'm 80kg, 185cm.
It caused me to fall hard on my face, I completely busted my lip (swollen/bruised), my front tooth ripped off (it had been bonded from a childhood injury, but was hit with huge force), other teeth hurt. Blood spattered under my glasses. My expensive glasses also broke (under my goggles), stupidly I did not have my sports cheaper glasses on this trip.
I feel like I've been mugged as it was hell of a punch. I've had falls but usually you know you are going to fall and at least its somewhat your fault. My worst fall was when I looked over a cornice, it fell and I broke my back but at least it was my fault. Even catching an edge or rock you have time to adjust a bit before the fall. The ski releasing in this fall propelled me forward, and it was on the most benign piste I've skied 1000 times to get to the lift.
Going to cost me at least £450 to fix my tooth (I need to get a rushed appointment before an important interview next Tuesday), £250 to replace my glasses.
When I went to the shop they were like 'Impossible'...but i guess they just want to have no liability. I guess I can't prove anything, and am not rich to sue them. If this happened going really fast on a piste (which i often do) you could be fatally injured.
The skis looked incredibly battered (but edges were ok and had been waxed), they were the only 180cm 100mm + skis—he looked like he could be incompetent and may have not fitted it properly or perhaps the DIN 10 was too much for old bindings (as I noticed after they only went up to 11)? I've always thought how incredibly dangerous the ski shops are for good skiers as they put the DINs at very low and skis popping off is so dangerous, when you are skiing aggressively. But for this it wasn't to do with the DIN. I think the skis could be too old and any shop in switzerland just wouldn;t stock skis like this.
This saga has put me off renting skis for life. I'm surprised I haven't seen any stories of this happening? Searching online people are aggrieved with ski shops for not having the skis release?
The french ski shops here can be really bad, especially nearer the resort. I remember once getting it tuned here and it had lots of burrs.
I think from now on I will always use my own equipment and get some more skis for a quiver. Also look into how to tune/wax my own skis, as where I regularly ski there isn't much snow.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@skitour, welcome to Snowheads. Sorry you are so bashed up. What did they "make you sign"?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you did genuinely suspect the binding then you should have kept hold of it and had it tested in another shop. Sorry to hear about it.
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Sucks to hear that.
Could be an old binding or they were - because of incompetence or lack of care - installed a few millimetres off compared to the boot sole length, meaning insufficient forward pressure. Most people just trust the shop, don’t check that or don’t know how.
There’s a lesson for us all, irrespective to how beginners/advanced we are, how aggressively we ski or which DIN the skis are set to: after choosing boots, check that the forward pressure indicator is where it should be combined with the boots you’re going to ski in when they hand you the gear.
Or, if you forgot to do that or don’t know how to, do a couple of nose butters when locked in and standing still. You shouldn’t pop out. Doesn’t help if the pressure is set too strong though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@pam_w, they just made me sign something about taking liability for the DIN being higher than they like. But this was the opposite porblem.
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@Glosterwolf, I'm interested in what I could have done. If another shop said it was set faulty, I guess the original shop could just say I tampered with it? But, yes, if it is just a bad binding then that is some proof. I don't know how much work it would be, what you could hope to gain?
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Getting them tested elsewhere would be a good idea, although not everywhere has the right gear for this.
Either way I ALWAYS check the DIN settings myself if anyone else has been fiddling with my skis. And the forward pressure. I once had a pair come back from a base grind and the pressure was way off on the bindings (no idea why they would have messed with the bindings). Know how to do this and always check if you are going to borrow skis.
The vast majority of ski hire shops are excellent and know what they are doing. But I always check everyone's DINs when I have a class of beginners or lower intermediates. Have come across a few set far, far too high. Mostly borrowed skis rather than rented, but have had to take a couple of people back to the shop for adjustment (and a quiet word in the ear of the tech).
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"There’s a lesson for us all, irrespective to how beginners/advanced we are, how aggressively we ski or which DIN the skis are set to: after choosing boots, check that the forward pressure indicator is where it should be combined with the boots you’re going to ski in when they hand you the gear. "
Yes, I'm sure it was apparent. I do remember setting that properly for my own skis.
I did not check at all and just assumed they would do it. I did look at the DIN and it was 10 on front/back (but only went up to 11). That also puts me off rental skiing if you have to double-check and be suspect, just for a day rental. I've never had to readjust my own skis.
I think this 'installed a few millimetres off compared to the boot sole length' is most likely the culprit as the guy was very slapdash/rushed and originally wanted to use boots of the same size in the shop. The skis did look too battered to be a rental pair.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@skitour, that sounds awful and as though they simply didn't set up the boot-to-binding fit properly, though heaven knows how you prove that. Exactly the same thing happened to me at Hemel, happily with no serious consequences, and I've never used their skis since. I always take my own skis abroad; fortunately, at my level/age, a decent pair of AM skis suffices and I don't need to travel around with a quiver.
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Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately as you said you had no proof and you signed the wavier you had very little ground to sue them and succeed. I think the only chance to win is if you were skiing with a friend who had your fall on their gopro to show the left ski came off by itself and you were not skiing recklessly.
That's a bummer hope you recover well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@skitour, welcome to snowHeads, by the way. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@skitour, I'm afraid that waiver aside, I think that by hiring the skis you accepted their Ts & Cs (a sign on the wall) and accepted all responsibility.
Also, if the first pre-release had happened to me I'd have assumed poor boot sizing and if properly set up, a dodgy binding. And gone straight back to the shop (having also checked no ice under sole - snow/ice on teh boot is commonly the cause of pre-releases.
Very bad luck, you have my sympathy.
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| skitour wrote: |
| @Glosterwolf, I'm interested in what I could have done. If another shop said it was set faulty, I guess the original shop could just say I tampered with it? But, yes, if it is just a bad binding then that is some proof. I don't know how much work it would be, what you could hope to gain? |
I would give them the boot also and if the heel is a notch back on the rail from where it should be which is most likely what has happened then I think you have a case to start asking questions about the shop and training of techs. With another shop verifying that both bindings were incorrectly adjusted but within the given range for boot size you would have decent evidence for a case that the tech wasn't trained. It depends on what your losses are on if it worth taking further. Why would you adjust them yourself. This is the most common mistake with rail bindings when the boot is on the lower limit of the range. You should only adjust the toe so boot is in range or even boot center mark on ski center and then move the heel to apply correct forward pressure regardless of what range in rail shows. More expensive bindings have better ways of adjusting forward pressure but rental bindings are usually like this from what I have seen. Im no expert but being in mechanical engineering I will try an download a tech manual if I come across a binding that isn't familiar or obvious. I only had to do exactly this on my daughter's new skis 8 days ago because I supplied sole length on ordering but no physical manual arrived with skis.
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You know it makes sense.
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I know that the ski coming off in undemanding on piste setting was "opposite problem" to indemnifying them against setting being too high. And it sounds as though the binding was faulty. But having signed an indemnity you probably have no leg to stand on. I always set my bindings ( on my own skis) a bit lower than my stats suggested. They never pre -released but only came off when I wanted them to! But my skiing was nearly all on piste and not in "no fall" territory.
I agree with Zikomo that most French ski hire shops are conscientious and do their best. I've had lots of friends and relatives renting gear, over many years, without problems. You were really unlucky.
PS....I hope you get the job.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sorry to hear of your troubles @skitour, as its always not good to have anyone in a position of injury through pursuit of a sport.
However....I dont agree its correct to conflate your experience with general comment about ski shop hire in France, thats highly illogical and defamatory.
My experience, more years than I care to remember, shepherding groups, family, friends, kids etc is that they know what they are doing and complete it competently. Never experienced a problem that has been refused to address it if going back to shop with a concern about equipment (that's without any notable accident happened) to make corrections or check the hired equipment suitability.
I dont think it's fair reflection to arrive on here then adding that outlook to the obvious condition in which you find yourself.
I have absolutely no allegiance to these business except as a customer.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Another posibility is that you accidentally and inadvertently moved one of the bindings on the rail. If they're the type with a little flick lever to lock them, it doesn't take much (say when carrying skis) to catch one and it move a notch.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Glosterwolf wrote: |
| …if the heel is a notch back on the rail from where it should be which is most likely what has happened… |
This sounds likely to me too, as it would affect the forward pressure. I once had a very similar accident myself, only I went down onto my shoulder rather than my face, but it was one hell of a landing! I now always make sure that the binding is checked after adjustment and with my boot in it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| adithorp wrote: |
| Another posibility is that you accidentally and inadvertently moved one of the bindings on the rail. If they're the type with a little flick lever to lock them, it doesn't take much (say when carrying skis) to catch one and it move a notch. |
Yes, I’ve seen this happen too. Luckily the binding moved so much it was obvious, but that pair are more carefully checked since.
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They’re only human!
I have rented skis many, many times before I bought my own. And had since rented many times skis different from mine. I will continue to do so. The chance of a “bad setup” is relatively rare.
It is, however, entirely conceivable that on that day and in that shop, the technician didn’t do everything right!
I’ve had one injury directly related to improper setup of rental skis. At the time, I had only skied perhaps less than 20 times. I didn’t know what a proper binding setup SHOULD BE. Yet, I felt there’s something not quite right about that particular setup. I made a mental note of it but didn’t go back to the shop to demand a second look. I should have. Later in the day, I fell, and the ski did not released. I suffered a torn ligament. Ended my season prematurely.
Years later, when I finally own my own skis, and learned how to set up binding, I knew instantly what was WRONG with that set up then. While the DIN setting was fine. They did not adjust the front binding height to match the boot. I could lift the front of the boot just a tiny bit. That was what I felt “not quite right” at the time, that excess movement of the boot. But, as a relatively new skier, I didn’t realize the significance of that tiny bit of lift. Basically, the ski would not release properly without that being set.
Unless the injury was serious, I don’t think it’s worthwhile to persue any sort of legal action.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| adithorp wrote: |
| Another posibility is that you accidentally and inadvertently moved one of the bindings on the rail. If they're the type with a little flick lever to lock them, it doesn't take much (say when carrying skis) to catch one and it move a notch. |
I'd say that this is a possibility - it can happen when carrying skis around, in and out of gondolas, ski racks etc.
I'm not a lawyer but I'd say you have slim to no chance of successful litigation here, from the shops perspective you could have just caught an edge and flipped - you need to prove otherwise - they don't. That said, many, many moons ago we were whitewater rafting in Austria when the guide accidentally smacked my wife in the gob with a paddle breaking her front tooth which required emergency dental treatment.
Despite signing a disclaimer beforehand regarding accident and injury, we sent them a strongly worded letter for an out of court settlement - if I recall they settled for around €1500 (which was enough to buy me a new Cannondale bike at the time!). You could try this, alternatively its one for your travel insurance.
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@adithorp, good point, it's astonishingly (and scarily) easy to do on some models.
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| Quote: |
But having signed an indemnity you probably have no leg to stand on.
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I beleive that signing such a document does not absolve the shop from negligence and the shop will probably have insurance to cover them from this (Though I have to confess I know nothing about French law). Like the others I doubt you would succeed in a legal case. without stronger evidence that the binding ajustment was faulty.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I retract painting a bad brush on all French ski shops! I had a bad experience or two with tuning at this particular ski shop at Ardent. So seems too much of a coincidence. More the skis were just so battered I'd be surprised to see a pair that used up for rental in Switzerland. Like the top had been eaten away massively at the edges.
"Another possibility is that you accidentally and inadvertently moved one of the bindings on the rail" Not sure what this means. I'm pretty sure they were marker bindings but went up to only 11? I wish I took photos of them so maybe we could analyze exactly what was wrong or if they were just old. I also remember reading that setting too high to the max can cause problems. It was only the 3rd-4th run of the day, so I don't think I inadvertently did something. I had just skied a deep powder run before it popped off the first time.
I guess the lesson was that I should have inspected when the ski popped off on the river and not assumed it was just a weird quirk because it was a bit rocky. Although I think I'm too scarred now and will use/travel with my own pair. As I do go quite fast, sometimes ski dangerous terrain, so it is a bit of a liability relying on someone else. I'm just so surprised this hasn't happened more often as only takes slight incompetence, and how can you prove if a shop is retiring their equipment when they should.
Yep, I don't think I can pursue any legal action. Just annoying about 1k for dental fees before an interview etc. , also was the best day of powder I've seen here in Avoriaz last few years I've been .
Personally, I'd rather my skis didn't risk coming off in most situations, so is very unsettling and makes you realise how reliant on the equipment you are when bombing down a piste. That's why I like setting the DIN high. For touring, I lock the toe piece sometimes, although I don't know if that does stop it coming off. I remember as a kid the shops setting them too low and them popping off when turning in powder.
Don't know how to quote on here! But glad to be on this forum.
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No, I'm sure you're right that an indemnity does not absolve against negligence. But specifically turning down their advice on binding settings would probably have an impact on any subsequent argument that they got the setting wrong. If I were the ski shop I'd argue that "the customer turned down my advice and confirmed that he was an experienced skier and willing to take his own responsibility for how the bindings were set".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As I’ve passed a certain magic age, these days, when I hire skis, I have to indicate a higher DIN setting than what’s “on the chart”. But once or twice, I forgot to do that, I quickly found my skis uphill of me as I slid dow tricky technical terrains on my stomach. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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At least you didn't break any tib/fib, knee, femur or hip which is what the binding is designed to protect.
Curious as there seems to be an obvious gap in technical description here. Did you put that boot back into that binding after this event ? without adjustment, If so, what was the result of that ?
Bindings rated to eleven shouldn't have any technical reason to be lacking that performance even when set to 11, running at 10 should have no undue influence either.
Binding described as "Old" also doesn't necessarily predict a problem one. There's a service life for almost everything, within which they operate effectively.
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| adithorp wrote: |
| Another posibility is that you accidentally and inadvertently moved one of the bindings on the rail. If they're the type with a little flick lever to lock them, it doesn't take much (say when carrying skis) to catch one and it move a notch. |
Definite possibility. This happened to one of my son’s skis (bought as ex-rentals) and the culprit was an overly loose flick lever that was catching enough snow to flip it open.
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You know it makes sense.
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I rent three times a year. In 14 years I have had one bad pair of skis. First release skiing the moguls beside Suisses in Courchevel. Second on a simple piste near Val Thorens. Close inspection then showed that the screws holding the front binding to the rail were all stripped, allowing the binding to rotate without warning. (I seem to recall that there was a manufacturing problem with this particular model/year). Shop exchanged them without quibble and the replacement Nordicas were excellent. I was lucky in that both resulting falls were without injury. Sorry to hear that yours beat you up.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skitour wrote: |
"Another possibility is that you accidentally and inadvertently moved one of the bindings on the rail" Not sure what this means. I'm pretty sure they were marker bindings but went up to only 11? I wish I took photos of them so maybe we could analyze exactly what was wrong or if they were just old. I also remember reading that setting too high to the max can cause problems. It was only the 3rd-4th run of the day, so I don't think I inadvertently did something. I had just skied a deep powder run before it popped off the first time.
…
Personally, I'd rather my skis didn't risk coming off in most situations, so is very unsettling and makes you realise how reliant on the equipment you are when bombing down a piste. That's why I like setting the DIN high. For touring, I lock the toe piece sometimes, although I don't know if that does stop it coming off. I remember as a kid the shops setting them too low and them popping off when turning in powder. |
First off, you seem to be confusing DIN with forward pressure. Some rail bindings have a little tab that lifts up to allow the binding to slide on the rail. Normally, you need a screwdriver to lift this, but they can get looser over time, and can accidentally be moved if knocked against something, thus adjusting the binding length and therefore the forward pressure. Other bindings need a screwdriver to adjust – if you had this type, which you probably did if they were Marker, then this point is not relevant.
As for your DIN, I would be more concerned that as someone who doesn’t know much about bindings, you may be winding your DIN up too high and risking a busted leg. What is the recommended setting according to the chart? If the binding is set correctly, the skis should stay on unless you are doing something a bit specialist. Source: as others here can attest, I bomb down plenty of pistes. I run my DIN 0.5 lower than the recommendation, and have never had a pre-release (the incident I referred to earlier were not my skis).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skitour wrote: |
| For touring, I lock the toe piece sometimes, although I don't know if that does stop it coming off. |
Do you mean lock your toes when going uphill (as the bindings are designed to be used, and as everyone does) or you lock your toes for downhill?
If the latter, that’s usually a hardcore chamonix no falls zone thing to do. It can have two negative consequences- you rip the binding out of the ski, or you rip your leg apart. I’ve never locked the toes in my life.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@snowdave, that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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valuable lessons to be learnt unfortunately the hard way.always take your own equipment as you know its tried and tested.regular service etc, basically once you leave the shop with there equipment its down to you.when the ski just popped of the first time on the 3rd run on a flat piste that was a wake up moment I know hindsight is 20/20 but you should have had a good look at your skis, and if not happy take them back. problem is once the accident has happened its happened can't undo it. I don't think complaining will have much luck they will say you signed the waiver and were happy with the equipment. having said that hope you are ok.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Are you not covered by your travel insurance for some of the costs of those injuries?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Potentially they were negligent but give that you handed skis back and didn’t get them checked independently or even with them at the shop am struggling to see that you have any viable prospect of proving it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| Are you not covered by your travel insurance for some of the costs of those injuries? |
That reminds me to check my American Express travel insurance regarding ski injuries, or our Vieux Campeur coverage. Seems like you would be, but you'd need to document everything. Or the station's own coverage package (which I admittedly have never taken...)
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| First off, you seem to be confusing DIN with forward pressure. Some rail bindings have a little tab that lifts up to allow the binding to slide on the rail. Normally, you need a screwdriver to lift this, but they can get looser over time, and can accidentally be moved if knocked against something, thus adjusting the binding length and therefore the forward pressure. |
The bindings on my Head Whatevers (the green ones) you just lift it with your thumb, very easy to do and move the binding about.
| Scarlet wrote: |
| As for your DIN, I would be more concerned that as someone who doesn’t know much about bindings, you may be winding your DIN up too high and risking a busted leg. What is the recommended setting according to the chart? If the binding is set correctly, the skis should stay on unless you are doing something a bit specialist. Source: as others here can attest, I bomb down plenty of pistes. I run my DIN 0.5 lower than the recommendation, and have never had a pre-release (the incident I referred to earlier were not my skis). |
I think for most of my skiing I'm on a 7 or 8, which I didn't think was much given what other people anecdotally run, plus being 100+kg and 6ft tall...but I've just checked an online calculator which said 7 for those stats.
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I've had similar experience myself with bindings releasing for no apparent reason, but that was with 1980s tyrolia bindings. They would perform as expected, releasing only in falls but then occasionally, the ski would simply fall off, eg as a chairlift took me, the ski was left behind.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| Scarlet wrote: |
| First off, you seem to be confusing DIN with forward pressure. Some rail bindings have a little tab that lifts up to allow the binding to slide on the rail. Normally, you need a screwdriver to lift this, but they can get looser over time, and can accidentally be moved if knocked against something, thus adjusting the binding length and therefore the forward pressure. |
The bindings on my Head Whatevers (the green ones) you just lift it with your thumb, very easy to do and move the binding about.
| Scarlet wrote: |
| As for your DIN, I would be more concerned that as someone who doesn’t know much about bindings, you may be winding your DIN up too high and risking a busted leg. What is the recommended setting according to the chart? If the binding is set correctly, the skis should stay on unless you are doing something a bit specialist. Source: as others here can attest, I bomb down plenty of pistes. I run my DIN 0.5 lower than the recommendation, and have never had a pre-release (the incident I referred to earlier were not my skis). |
I think for most of my skiing I'm on a 7 or 8, which I didn't think was much given what other people anecdotally run, plus being 100+kg and 6ft tall...but I've just checked an online calculator which said 7 for those stats. |
I'm 185/90kg and find that din7 is the sweet spot between releasing without pain to my joints in a fall and pre release.
I ski quite hard, on piste & in moguls.
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The only time I had a ski "just fall off" it was because I'd not got rid of packed ice/snow from under my boot. 
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FAQ
