 Poster: A snowHead
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I do leg blasters at least three times a week all year round. 5 sets of 20 squats, 20 lunges, 20 jumping lunges, 10 jumping squats, with 20s break in between. I don't find them particularly challenging anymore. I'm wondering if I should up the number of sets (say do 10 sets instead of 5) or increase the intensity (e.g. using weights instead of body weights) or increase the frequency (e.g. do it every day).
I'm trying to get ready for the coming seasons. In the past I noticed no matter what I did, I would still be knackered after the first day of skiing. So I'm trying see if there's anything I could do to up my fitness level.
ps I also play tennis (twice a week) and cycle to work (5 miles each way - twice a week)) and lift weights (two to three times a week).
pps I telemark (if that matters)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You sound considerably fitter than myself. As you seem to be knackered regardless, I would suggest that you might not be flexing your ankles enough, thereby needing to use your thigh muscles all the time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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freethemind, Have you tried slowing down each rep of the leg blasters ? Eccentric exercises performed slowly, build strength. 
Also as joffy69, says maybe look to your technique too ?
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@freethemind, yeah, I’m with @joffy69, you’re doing something else wrong …
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Is it only after the first day that you're knackered, or is it all week?
You could introduce Rowing, Cycling and using a Cross-Trainer - if have access to a gym. If you don't want to join a gym, then jogging (especially uphill) and cycling if have a bicycle.
Certainly, having the wrong stance can cause thigh fatigue - as can wrongly set up boots or overly tight calf muscles.
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Thank you all. Yea agreed my technique could be better. I think I tend to brake too much when I tele as I don't feel as confident as I'm skiing.
It normally happens only on the first day then it gets better the rest of the week. Having said that I still won't be able to tele all day (whereas I'd be able to ski all day from first lift till last lift without too big of an issue). Typically (after the first day that is) I'd be able to drop my knee all morning then starts to get tired in the afternoon and have to ski parallel.
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@joffy69, just to say, I edited my first post to remove "it's your technique" because I felt that it wasn't a very helpful remark.
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@freethemind, haha I can ski a fairly long day on easier slopes - think Monterosa, not Chamonix - but maybe a couple of hours on teles ... maybe it's the free heel?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@freethemind, It sounds like you are doing lots of the right things.
I would consider:
Leg blasters - Increasing the reps from 20 to 30 to boost stamina.
Tennis - Hard to judge but you should be aiming to leave the court pretty tired if you are using it for fitness (I'm usually more broken after I play field hockey than after a gym session)
Cycling - Lower the cadence to build leg muscle.
Weights - Add a bit more leg focus to your workout with an aim to build capacity in the whole leg. Be careful not to neglect the hamstrings because if you loose muscle balance you'll be at more risk of knee injury.
There's quite a bit of general ski fitness info on this thread which may help:
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=169122
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@freethemind, Where are you based? We could work on your tele technique here in the UK. Tele (IMV) should be less tiring than alpine!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ski wrote: |
| , Where are you based? We could work on your tele technique here in the UK. Tele (IMV) should be less tiring than alpine! |
Not IME, but that's almost certainly just that my telemark technique is much less developed than my fixed-heel skiing (rusty BASI 1 level as opposed to 3). I suspect that's true for a lot of part-time telemarkers, so yeah, working on technique could be very helpful.
@freethemind It does sound like it's not a fitness issue per se, but maybe as well as working on technique you need to develop more power. I'm no fitness guru but have noticed my leg muscles trying to diminish in recent years, and have an ongoing knee problem for which I'm putting off another surgery, so use weights very specifically to help that. Mainly squats and lunges with 60-80kg of weight. Also good for my back and core strength, which again helps to moderate other injury-related pains. Using weights also can help track improvements or reduction over time, which again, as age creeps up, might be a very useful indicator.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@freethemind, I do leg blasters in the weeks leading up to the start of the ski season. I do the same as you, except taking a 30 second rest between sets, but I do add weights. I'd typically start with just body weight, but I'll then use dumbbells, gradually increasing the weight up to 2 x 5 kg dumbbells. I try and do the leg blasters as fast as possible (aiming for just under 70 seconds per set)
I'll typically do leg blasters twice a week as part of a gym session. I'll also do a few weeks of plyometrics instead of leg blasters. I may do plyometrics first, or leg blasters.
In addition to the above I cycle a lot, and will have just finished the cyclocross race season, so aerobic fitness is already well covered
I also telemark, and doing the plyometrics and leg blasters make a major difference for knee stability (I'm lacking an ACL), and avoiding DOMS after skiing (though the DOMS after the first session of leg blasters is pretty intense)
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You know it makes sense.
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I rode with some good Tele folk last season, both professionals who ride every day all season. Neither dropped their knees on the trickier stuff. They rode all day, but they didn't knee drop all the time, not even close. This in Heli terrain with very good skiers.
I think you may be just doing something quite hard. Ibuprofen for day 1, and don't worry about it?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I think you may be just doing something quite hard.
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Tele is hard, but not physically hard. If you can be in the middle of the ski, and get back there when out of balance it doesn't need to be tiring. It was much harder on leather boots, but, especially with NTN much less effort now.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@ski, I'm based in London. I'm impressed you thought tele was less tiring than alpine. For me it's the other way round. I could ski all day without problems but I struggle to tele normally by mid afternoon. Conscious my tele technique is not as good as my alpine so there's definitely a bit of inefficiency there.
@phil_w, Yea I guess just that I tele doesn't mean I have to drop my knees all day. I'm not a tele purist in that sense and skiing parallel is a valid tele technique too. My desire to drop the knee for as long as possible is that I wanted to improve on my tele-skiing!
And thanks for all the advice. All very sensible. I used to play badminton in a club as well for a few hours during the weekend. Maybe I should pick that up again. In my mind that's a more vigorous activity than tennis!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@freethemind, Sent you a PM.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've been reading the 'it's your technique' cobblers for years. Like, if you have perfect technique your legs will never ache.  Three of my kids worked in industry in Switzerland for 6/7 years. Two as instructors, the other being an expert level freeride skier. All in their late 20s, they'd say that it would take 2 weeks minimum to 'break' their legs in at the beginning of each new season. I train legs x3 gym sessions per week, 50 weeks per year. My legs will burn on days one and two of the first trip of the season.
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@Mollerski, all depends how hard you're skiing, but I have traditionally done sweet FA to prepare for a ski holiday (in fact I do very little exercise at all) and haven't had to complain about leg burn for years.
I do generally have a slightly more relaxed opening day, and of course I have aches, but proper though burn is mostly a thing of the last for me. That said, I do have fairly chunky thighs anyway, and have spent a lot of time cycling over the years (less so recently). But I'm not convinced leg strength is the be all and end all, I suspect flexibility is as much a part of the leg burn game.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@SnoodyMcFlude, It's a combination of muscle condition and lactic acid tolerance in my opinion. Also, as discussed at length before, a bolt upright slider style skier wouldn't put the quads to work in the same way that a more dynamically positioned carving technique would. Wait for the incoming on that one. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@kitenski, That's remarkable. Well done.
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@Mollerski,
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Like, if you have perfect technique your legs will never ache.
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They will ache! But... especially with tele, if you aren't optimally balanced over your feet you'll be using your quads to hold yourself up and you'll be fighting that extra tension in your legs every time you try to rotate your feet. Being in the back seat will mean you have to turn the ski instead of having the ski turn you, which again is extra effort.
I'll go for a more dynamic posture (which might be taller or shorter depending) when I want more performance from my skis -- so carving on piste (tele) I'll be taller which enables more lateral movement, whereas in bumps I'll be a little lower with a shorter lead change.
But it terms of skiing all day as a holiday skier, I don't think your legs should ache that much. I'm 60 and not that fit. I do get to have skis on every week of the year though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Mollerski, I used to be a lot lazier in my skiing and weight a bit backwards (not fully backseat, but definitely needing to get forward more). Also my hands would often drop (that still happens to a degree, I'm working on it  ) Over the years I've learned to be a bit more positive, weight down the line more etc. etc. and have a bit more confidence in the ski to do it's job.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I suspect that tele is inherently more physical that other ski variants.
However with plain old skiing/ snowboarding, 'it's your technique' is usually the correct answer.
Those with beautiful technique make it look easy because it is easy when done right.
If the opposite was true, and then you'd expect performance of people to drop off with age, along with their fitness.
If as you age you feel yourself doing less, it's not "cobblers" to wonder if you're relying on fitness rather than technique.
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| Quote: |
However with plain old skiing/ snowboarding, 'it's your technique' is usually the correct answer.
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Based on much observation, I think this is usually the case.
Although, equally, I see @Mollerski's point. Skiing's hard to train for. Horse riding?
Also rather depends what level you're working at, relatively speaking. I have a bunch of chums who I can ski with all day every day and not break a sweat. Equally, I have a few chums who will happily break me if I don't complain hard and often enough.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@freethemind, 5 months is a good length of time
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @freethemind, 5 months is a good length of time |
True, but it's 'kin hard when the sun is out and a cool beer in the garden is calling.
Anyway, I'm off to the gym now. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@freethemind
I think its ok to struggle first days in the mountains simple because of lack of acclimatization.
I spent one year with pro coach (who trained Olympian), and I can tell that things regarding ski prep are much more complex than anticipated, anything you can find on youtube and forums, all good, but lacking bigger picture. Cycling, running etc are good for general fitness, however if doing just then alone, will do very little to skiing despite of common belief. The good ski programm should take into consideration where you are in the season, great exercises variability and many more other stuff. If you really want a progress, then find a ski prep coach, (I dont know anyone in partucular, the one Ive been with is not english speaker) and I promise, exercises will be hard again:)
I think the variability is the current issue, the stuff you do is not hard anymore because you muscles get used to it. You have to variate and introduce changes every training day you do, doing same thing over and over again, won't be developing, hence there will be no progress. There are different ways how to do squats for example and different approaches. One I did,for example, is 10 normal squats with the bar, then immediately as you finish,do another 10 with dumbbells explosive jumps up, after these, another 10 jumps without any weights, all this is one set 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ed48 wrote: |
@freethemind
.....the stuff you do is not hard anymore because your muscles get used to it. |
Absolutely this.
Keep challenging the body by mixing it up.....and (@OP) don't leave out balance exercises.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ed48 wrote: |
@freethemind
I think its ok to struggle first days in the mountains simple because of lack of acclimatization.
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That's a very good point. I tend to be more adversely affected than my ski buddies on day one. Maybe because I live only 36m above sea level?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A fall line article about telemarking, which points out:
| Kevin Young wrote: |
| Burning in the quads is just weakness leaving your body. All telemarkers are united in this pain. |
It's newbie focused, but there it is: https://www.fall-line.co.uk/learn-to-telemark/
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First time commenting in this section of Snowheads, I think.
I've started my annual fitness pre ski trips campaign, possibly earlier than in previous years. I have a base fitness of sorts from some yoga, hilly short bike rides and long walks.
Now I've added more yoga and my own regime of leg blasters, the plank, push-ups and some abs work. I hope to add more tricky balance exercises as I progress. The first time post leg blasters I was semi crippled for a couple of days, I then wait until that's gone before working out again. The days interval required between leg blasters naturally decreases.
I opt for high rep, ultimately 5 sets of 30. Trying to replicate the work on legs in skiing long runs. Hoping this prevents leg burn.
I've had grade 2 MCL tears of both knees in the last 5 years, one was from ice skating, the other a dumb garden accident. Fully heeled thanks to an excellent consultant and knee brace at the time. But I had noticed the left knee MCL pain was returning a few weeks ago. Interestingly, now that I'm conditioning the legs, all pain has gone .
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What is the problem? Are you struggling because legs are burning at the end of the run and you have soreness/DOMs in the muscles? Or you are just out of breath at the end of a long run, and generally exhausted after a full day skiing? One suggests strength issues, the other more general cardio fitness.
I would think some muscle soreness is quite normal. It's a case of a new movement pattern you haven't done for a year and you are likely out there a good few hours. Even more so for Tele which would seem to put some extra strain on quads. Obviously general strength work can help minimise this somewhat. Obviously technique and equipment set up can also make a huge difference in just how much stress muscles are getting put under and overall effort required.
If you are not finding the leg blasters challenging any more you definitely need to progress them in some way (progressive overload). My suggestion would be using weights. Barbell squats are excellent, and I suspect barbell lunges would translate well to telemark. Also barbell is very easy to track progress and continue overload by adding extra reps or weight.
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Those with beautiful technique make it look easy because it is easy when done right.
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Very true. The beauty of skiing/snowboarding is that gravity does all the hard work!
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lack of acclimatization
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Ski resorts are just not that high, and skiing just not that physically demanding in the grand scheme of things.
@qwerty360, makes a good point. When skiing you are likely on your feet for considerably longer than any of your other activities. Maybe try adding in some longer hikes or bike rides.
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Cycling - Lower the cadence to build leg muscle.
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Low cadence will put more stress on the muscles than higher cadence. But if you are looking to build leg strength it's not a particularly good method. The resistance is still too low. As a very general guideline rep ranges of 5-12 are probably pretty optimum resistance for improving strength. Even low cadence cycling you are doing 40-50reps per minute for multiple minutes demonstrating just how much lower the resistance is.
Also the best option is always to stay in shape all year so you don't need some kind of "pre ski trip getting in shape training".
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Not sure if you’re replying to me?
For me I never run out of gas, I don’t feel exhausted at the end of a day’s skiing.
It’s typical thigh burn on runs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Snow&skifan, thigh burn could well be technique (highly likely I'd suggest) vs conditioning. I'm 58 can ski fast/steep/lumpy stuff all day without any thigh burn
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FAQ
I don't think it's the sole factor, but I do think it's more often the correct answer.
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