 Poster: A snowHead
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There are in other outdoor activities.
Climbing for example has unwritten rules which most entering the sport recognise and abide with. Its sacrilege for example to bolt a route that has previously been climbed without permanent protection. Equally its frowned upon to rip out vegetation to create a wholly new route, (euphemistically referred to as 'gardening'), or to climb at certain sites during the bird breeding season.
Even caving has some ethics, notably respect for intricate formations and the extreme purity of certain environments.
I carn't think of many 'unwritten' rules in skiing though. There seems almost no self regulation and the only thing preventing further development of the mountains are planning policies and environmental regulations. It seems that skiers rarely campaign themselves against further exploitation.
Are there things that we should do collectively to safeguard the traditions of our sport and the environment it takes place in or is it just too commerical and unfocused for that ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmm well there are the standard skiers code rules but I guess you're not counting those ? I guess the difference between climbing and skiing is that pistes are maintained by the locals for skiers, wheras rock faces don't tend to need so much attention. I have noticed in recent years an increasing enviromental concern in the alps, for instance snowcats using bio diesel, snowcannons using recycled melt water and so on.
What do you think we should do ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Peter S wrote: |
I carn't think of many 'unwritten' rules in skiing though. There seems almost no self regulation and the only thing preventing further development of the mountains are planning policies and environmental regulations. It seems that skiers rarely campaign themselves against further exploitation.
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There is a big difference though. Climbers and cavers are largely going under their own power and can practise their sport with very little impact on the environment bar driving up to Stannage or flying to the Calanques and leaving a bit of chalk dust on the mountain. The very "ethics" of downhill skiing require a huge infrastructure and massive environmental intrusion just to winch a minority of the population who enjoy the mountains to the top of peaks. The climbing equivalent to sking is the enviromental blot that is Everest.
Somewhere like France, and especially the Savoie, could really benefit from a moratorium on further extension to any ski domains. Not an opinion that will find much resonance with downhill skiers I feel.
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the climbing ethics Peter S seems to be talking about are more to do with maintaining the purity of the challenge of climbing routes than environmental concerns, although the two do go hand-in-hand (eg. bolting a route makes it easier in some senses and you have the environmental damage of formerly pristine rock being full of bits of metal).
The analogies between this sort of thing and skiing aren't obvious, particularly when applied to piste skiing. I suppose the eithical question to a bad skier who claims to have skied a black run is whether they actually skied it or whether they got down it with a combination of falling, side slipping and sliding on their ar53s (while wearing skis). At higher levels of skiing and ski mountaineering, you do get ethical debates. For example, did you use any mechanical uplift; did you do the descent entirely on skis or did you need to use abseils, downclimbing etc? There is a big ethical debate about skiing the Colorado 14ers - the first person to ski them all (Lou Dawson) claims to have skied from the top of all the mountains which are capable of being skied from the top. Other people have since tried to do all of them in one season and the snow conditions at the time have meant that they haven't been able to ski from the top of some mountains which were possible for Lou. He skied them over a period of years and was able to wait for optimal conditions.
I do wonder what the point of ethics are though. Arguments about them only seem to arise if someone is trying to claim that their achievement hasn't been beaten or equalled. I actually ski for myself. I feel a bit disappointed with myself if I sideslip a section which maybe I could ski, but it isn't something I'll lose too much sleep over, nor is it something I would expect to be berated for by some self-appointed guardian of skiing ethics!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There are certainly ethics when it comes to off-piste, largely due to safety concerns. You don't enter a line below another skier, you don't ski too close to the skier in front, you don't stop next to them etc.
People will frown upon other skiers destroying a powder line with unnecessary lines, i.e. don't cut across the middle of a nice bowl unless it's an access line, just ski a nice, reasonably tight line down it.
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I believe there is plenty ethic in skiers judging from the amount of skies being left unguarded in any resort yet only a small number reported stolen each year.
Try to park the same number of push bikes in any European town or city to see the difference.
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flicksta,
Great points, just a shame many people don't know about them 
Other off piste ones, always ski "in sight" of your group, always stop "in safety", but where you can still see your group, always plan an exit route in case an ava goes off above/below you.
Cheers,
Greg
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Don't poach someone elses powder line.
In bumps stay in the fall line and predictable, don't suddeny traverse across someone elses line.
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Don't posthole the tracks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| veeeight wrote: |
In bumps stay in the fall line and predictable, don't suddeny traverse across someone elses line. |
How annoying is that? Someone donkey riding across your nice tight bumps line.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Read the first of Martin's threads - got to say I'm in the camp that says that in lift served terrain you shouldn't feel obliged to spoon tracks.
Ethics- don't bootpack on a ski traverse or a skin track unless there is no other option (not always possible for snowboarders). Shout dropping before dropping off a busy cornice so that someone doesn't go at the same time. Fill up chairs if there is a queue (this is almost impossible to achieve in Europe for some reason).
Pick up someone's skis if they've fallen downhill of them. Stop to see if anyone down is ok. Carry a roll of duck tape & a multitool & fix other people's gear if you can & they're a long way from a lift.
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Don't kibbitz others' lessons.
Don't ski between junior(s) and parents or instructors.
DO poach fatbob's (lift served) line. 
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You know it makes sense.
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Dont f@rt in a Gondola unless you know everyone sharing your cabin
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Frosty the Snowman, I need a sig line for U N E T H I C A L, though lactose power might do.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Don't sit in the middle of a piste and admire the view unless you have no objection to a high speed impact between a ski edge and your head
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Dont f@rt in a Gondola unless you know everyone sharing your cabin |
Crop dusting: f@rting in the Gondola just before you get out at the mid-station leaving the occupants to sample the "pure mountain experience".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In North America & Canada - DO observe the lift line etiquette with respect to taking turns and alternating at the merge.
Fill the chairs on busy days.
On busy/fast cat tracks, try not to "Crazy Ivan" like a punter........ 
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davidof,
Annoying. Similar experience in Argentina last year, first up lift, charged reasonably quickly to the top of popular couloir for freshies. Stopped at the top, I'd not skied it before so my buddy points out the line, escape routes etc. We then have a little of check of kit and prepare to go. As he pushes off, bloke appears next to us, clearly sees we are about to attempt to summit mount Fresh Powder and blasts past us. Not popular, particularly as to get in front, he has to ski a really ugly line to drop some vertical to get below. Messes it up for us, skis a rubbish line himself. What's the point? In a similar circumstance, if he was there first, we'd have let him go.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Peter S wrote: |
It seems that skiers rarely campaign themselves against further exploitation.
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see:
http://mountainwilderness.org/
and
http://www.mountain-riders.org/
I think a lot of this stuff about poaching lines etc etc isn't the sort of ethics Peter S is talking about. They're in the same category as not kicking stones on people's heads while climbing rather than ethics about maintaining the purity of the challenge or environment. Maybe Peter S can elaborate?
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It should be a law that any small ESF kid's snaking across a turkey shoot can be pushed off the side of the slope. :]
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Jono wrote: |
| It should be a law that any small ESF kid's snaking across a turkey shoot can be pushed off the side of the slope. :] |
Errr... you mean there isn't a law saying you can do this? Ooopps! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Arno,
I see what you mean, and what Peter S is after. Obviously lift-served piste skiing is essentially artificial, and you could even argue that lift-served off-piste is artificial also. I climb, albeit pretty simple stuff, and don't subscribe to the 'Everest-isn't-a-mountain-because-there-are-fixed-ropes-and-anyone-can-do-it' idea. If someone skis a 55deg couloir from lift access, they have big nuts in my book. If they have to climb up to get into it, they also have big nuts. For me, how you get down only really starts at the top, if you see what I mean. Kudos for the people who ski mountaineer, myself include to a limited degree, but a difficult line is a difficult line, however you get there.
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flicksta, I agree - that sort of ethics as applied to skiing just sounds like an excuse for one-up-manship to me.
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You know it makes sense.
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Possibly there are some ethical questions re snowmobile access in the backcountry (where allowed). In North America all sorts of etiquette has probably had to evolve over this - is it poor form to blast bast a guy skinning then ski his intended line in relays. Not forgetting that some people are in the backcountry just to snowmobile. Count yourself lucky when you're in Europe.
But as for purity of challenge I think those sort of questions are fairly irrelevant even to the most enthusiastic skiers outside of the ski-mountaineering community logging first descents etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| veeeight wrote: |
Don't poach someone elses powder line.
In bumps stay in the fall line and predictable, don't suddeny traverse across someone elses line. |
How do define "someone else's powder line"? Do they sell them with the lift tickets?!
In bumps, what if someone is learning to ski the zipper line, can only manage 6 turns and then needs to "abort" by traversing out?
I believe that one of the good parts of our sport is that more experienced skiers help and have understanding for less skilful skiers. Yelling at someone because they traversed across your line is not part of that.
The only time you should expect to have a clear run down your zipper line is if you're competing in an official moguls comp. Otherwise, you'll have to accept that you may sometimes have to share your bumps run with skiers who are still learning to ski them as well as you...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Martin Bell,
Don't remember anyone saying anything about yelling.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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"My" fresh tracks powder line is the fall line - in the backcountry I'll be pretty peeved if someone deliberately cut across "my" line, when there is the rest of the clear patch to ski on.
Agreed that this doesn't really apply in-bounds, but still. I'll extend the courtesy to someone skiing beside me and not poach their fresh line.
Yes it is a tricky one with bumps, as you say, there will always be someone who is ejected into a traverse. I can think of some occasions when I've been peeved, as their traverse did not really warrant them traversing *that* far across to meet the line I was taking!
eg; I'm skiing down the fall line right on the edge of the run, the majority of skiers are right in the middle or the opposite edge. You can see that I'm skiing down the fall line, staying right on the edge of the run, but said skier traverses right across to the very edge that I'm on. Downhill skier has right of way and all that, but he/she is looking up the hill watching me descend that line. And *still* chooses to come below me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Martin Bell wrote: |
| Otherwise, you'll have to accept that you may sometimes have to share your bumps run with skiers who are still learning to ski them as well as you... |
Are you saying there are people who want to ski bumps the way I do? 
(O.T. How's Montana?)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Martin Bell, nice to see you back, as it were. Good point. I do recall yelling out some poor individual who decided to traverse across Tortin as I was endeavouring to run a decent line.
Yes. I was a t0sser for yelling at him. I was much younger and fuller of hubris although that is no excuse...
No ethics on a powder day but in all other circumstances the FIS 10 rules do stand up to reasonable scrutiny, don't they?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| flicksta wrote: |
Martin Bell,
Don't remember anyone saying anything about yelling. |
Fair point, but I've seen it a few times and it's not something we want in our sport.
| veeeight wrote: |
| "My" fresh tracks powder line is the fall line - in the backcountry I'll be pretty peeved if someone deliberately cut across "my" line, when there is the rest of the clear patch to ski on. |
Ah, but how can you tell if someone is doing it deliberately, or is just too nervous to make their first turn?
| veeeight wrote: |
| eg; I'm skiing down the fall line right on the edge of the run, the majority of skiers are right in the middle or the opposite edge. You can see that I'm skiing down the fall line, staying right on the edge of the run, but said skier traverses right across to the very edge that I'm on. Downhill skier has right of way and all that, but he/she is looking up the hill watching me descend that line. And *still* chooses to come below me. |
I can see that that would be an annoying situation. But again, maybe that skier isn't crossing below just to annoy you. Maybe he wants to take a photo, or pop into the woods for a quick Jimmy Riddell.
All I'm saying is, once you jettison the cover-all "downhill skier has right of way" rule and start making exceptions, you get on to very shaky territory, where you would have to prove "intent" and show why this was a special case.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
(O.T. How's Montana?) |
Great, thanks, the move went very well.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
Martin Bell, nice to see you back, as it were. Good point. I do recall yelling out some poor individual who decided to traverse across Tortin as I was endeavouring to run a decent line.
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Hey, we always used to scream at "punters" who got in the way of us in training courses. And one of our coaches used to threaten them with a shovel...
But, yes, we all get older, wiser and better-behaved eventually:)
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In as much as it's rude to push in a queue, I can see that to craftily steal a lead on someone down fresh snow isn't nice. However how you turn once it's your go should be up to you. I don't see farming the powder as being obligatory, maybe you're learning, maybe you just want to go fast and wide. Except if starting off, no-one uphill of you has any claim to the line, powder, bumps, couloir or anything else, on or off piste, lift served or not.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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there is no queuing in europe as we know it,, getting on the lift is a whole sport in itself.. each lift has a critical mass of Q it can handle, once that is breached the concept of the civil Q breaks down and you get into ' combat Qing'.. now whilst this sounds violent, in reality it isnt, its a question of tactics and positioning, anticipation and subtle movement.... sometimes you have to do some 'running off the Q' to make spaces for other halfs n kids ,who dont have your skill levels, and to keep your team together.. sometimes you can work alone.. the best moves are often seem by a pack of mates working alone but culminating in reforming of the pack at the perfect moment.. (the killer whale move)..
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Those just joining the 'combat Q' experience an intresting emotion called 'frustration'.. this is caused by seeing half full chairs whizzing up the mountainside.. but once they have enjoyed 10 minutes of combat Qing and reach the gate, a strange phenomenon occurs, an irrisistable desire to let just one chair go so they can sit next to a frd or have a bit more room.. this phenomenon is known as 'retrospective Q blindness'
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CANV CANVINGTON, Excellent.
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