 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ The second Val D'Isere avalanche you reference is documented below:
https://www.data-avalanche.org/avalanche/1704363516553
Having been skiing in the area on that day (with my kids) I would suggest it was entirely predictable?
- significant new snow (30-40cm) overnight
- very high winds
- avalanche occurred on short pitch of steeper terrain (35 degrees) in a wind loaded bowl
- forecast indicated cat-3 risk on that aspect and altitude
Yes, it was very close to the Grand Pre piste / lift.
However there is no such thing as a "little bit off piste" in Europe.
I believe the photo below shows a pisteur (on way to incident) about to trigger a 2nd slide.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Haggis_Trap, agreed. A lot of red flags.
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Full avvy kit including airbag for inbounds (US) and for between the pistes Europe*?
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I am actually coming around to the idea of an airbag in bounds. But would only wear it when risk is super high. Inbounds slides are still incredibly rare, and I think for normal conditions it's not really necessary, although you can make an argument why not be extra safe. From what I've read this was the first time this season that terrain was open. I seem to remember the same was true for the avalanche at the hill in Idaho? Perhaps highest risk of inbounds slide? After that initial opening skier compaction is certainly going to help.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@boarder2020,
Not Idaho - California, at the famous "Squaw Valley"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm unsure why anyone would consider that area in VDI safe(I know it well and have skied it many times many variations) avi level 3 = considerable = taking the whole slope in to account for remote triggering. Some bits way over 30°, a freshly wind loaded snow pack under a cliff band. Nothing unlucky about that. it was asking for it
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@stevesie, I know where the resort formerly known as squaw is  I meant that this was the first time that terrain had been opened this season and it slid. One of the previous inbounds avalanche fatalities in recent history was at silver mountain in Idaho l where the terrain was also being opened for the first time that season
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@Haggis_Trap, Over the years we have watched people ski that area at times they really should have left well alone. I rather think its because they are skiing in sight of at least one piste and think its fine.
Whats worse is that in order to access it you cant really fail to see that it doesnt look great, wind blown snow, overhangs, steep etc etc
I feel for people who get caught out, but I have more sympathy with the professionals who have to go there to dig them out..............
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Tahoe is the absolute king of the big, heavy dump with high winds. Its how it happens there, and its what happened this time. So while this event is sad and shocking, it isn't a surprise. The people at Palisades know what they're doing. I'm sure there was extensive discussion about opening KT, which has as much steep, randy terrain as any chairlift anywhere. I don't want to second guess them but I will say it was a bit of a surprise they opened it at that particular time. Glad I don't have to make those calls except for myself.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Add into the mix yesterday's fatal inbound avy on KT22 at Palisades. Multiple burials just after terrain was opened for first time this season.
Someone seemingly fecked up with skier packing/ control prior to opening.... |
Sounds that way.
I've opened terrain for the season with my slope safety buddy now and then, and none of us used an airbag. If we thought it was going to slide... we'd not have been there. There does come a point when someone has to make a decision. The mountain doesn't know you're an expert... but it knows if you've been throwing bombs at it 
Like with helmets, you may end up wearing the safety gear in your car if you really want to minimize your risk. And definitely in the bar, of course. I wonder if the blokes with the bags are the same wannabes whining when it takes a while to open terrain. I'm not sneering at folk who make different risk assessments, just explaining mine.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Like with helmets, you may end up wearing the safety gear in your car if you really want to minimize your risk. And definitely in the bar, of course.
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+1
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First I’d like to give @Rogerdodger a shout out for raising my awareness around the topic of avalanches and avalanche safety - as a US-based inbounds-only skier this was not something I had given a lot of thought to in the past.
My wife found a good followup article about the recent Palisades At Tahoe avalanche - this type of information very rarely circulates in the mainstream media in the US, probably because of how seldom it is people are killed by them.
The article states that in the last decade, only 6 people have died from avalanches in an inbound ski resort area. This is out of a total of 244 people for the same time period, the remainder being those who ducked a rope boundary or were skiing backcountry. https://www.kqed.org/news/11972590/with-tahoe-winter-storm-warning-this-weekend-what-to-know-about-avalanche-risk
As a percentage of participating, the difference in the rates get even wider, given that probably fewer than 10% of skiers are backcountry skiers, yet almost all the fatalities were from their much smaller number. So that’s both telling and encouraging, at least from a risk management perspective, I think. It means that as long as you ski inbounds at a resort, the risk of dying in an avalanche is vanishingly small.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Tom_Ski wrote: |
| It means that as long as you ski inbounds at a resort, the risk of dying in an avalanche is vanishingly small. |
Even the risk of being hit from behind would possibly be higher.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It means that as long as you ski inbounds at a resort, the risk of dying in an avalanche is vanishingly small.
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Yes your risk of dying inbounds in a collision (person or immovable object) or in a tree well is much higher than an avalanche.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've opened terrain for the season with my slope safety buddy now and then, and none of us used an airbag. If we thought it was going to slide... we'd not have been there.
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I've never worn an airbag in bounds. Always wear it out of bounds. Agree with your premise that if you feel you need one you shouldn't be there. I know if I ever have to pull it I've made a big mistake somewhere. But considering you need a bag anyway for avy gear I just think why not go with the airbag. The potential downsides (cost, little extra weight) just seen massively outweighed by it potentially saving your life. Although, yes of course not getting in a slide in the first place is the best option, but the same could be said for cars and seatbelts.
I'd guess the big difference in bounds is that a lot of the time I'm blindly assuming ski patrol have made it safe. Perhaps that in itself is a bad thing, but I think it is the reality for most of us. I've certainly never seen anyone stop to did a pit on a powder day!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
I've never worn an airbag in bounds. Always wear it out of bounds. Agree with your premise that if you feel you need one you shouldn't be there. I know if I ever have to pull it I've made a big mistake somewhere. But considering you need a bag anyway for avy gear I just think why not go with the airbag. The potential downsides (cost, little extra weight) just seen massively outweighed by it potentially saving your life. Although, yes of course not getting in a slide in the first place is the best option, but the same could be said for cars and seatbelts.
I'd guess the big difference in bounds is that a lot of the time I'm blindly assuming ski patrol have made it safe. Perhaps that in itself is a bad thing, but I think it is the reality for most of us. I've certainly never seen anyone stop to did a pit on a powder day! |
While I’m new to this whole avi thinking process and way of skiing, I’ve been motorcycling both on and off road for most of my life, and have spent a good deal of time thinking about and discussing with others the risk management aspects of riding. I can see a number of similarities. For instance, when you say “I know if I ever have to pull it I've made a big mistake somewhere” it seems quite similar to my thinking about crashing - which is that crashing is simply not acceptable, regardless of who was right or wrong. To me, it all does ultimately come down to risk management decision making. The safest way to ride a motorcycle is to stay off of it and don’t ride. The safest way to avoid being killed in an avalanche is to stay out of snow country entirely.
After that, you have to accept and manage risk. We don’t wear full leathers and protective helmets, boots and gloves because we’re looking forward to testing their protective properties. We wear them because even though we believe we are doing everything we can “right”, there is always a possibility that either we will have missed something; or something gets us that was totally unforeseeable (I heard a story about a guy who got run over by a cement truck while stopped in the turn lane at a stop light on a divided surface road. The truck was coming the other way when it inexplicably crossed to the wrong side in the middle of the intersection and ran over the stopped moto rider, killing him. File under sh*t happens.
What I’m finding a bit daunting about risk management in the avi realm is that it seems to me the variables and their degrees of freedom are much much greater than what I encounter in a riding environment, resulting in way more unpredictability, regardless of how careful you are.
I’m enjoying the discussion and interested in learning more - lots of great resources both here and elsewhere on the web, so starting to seek it out and work on learning about it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ The second Val D'Isere avalanche you reference is documented below:
https://www.data-avalanche.org/avalanche/1704363516553
Having been skiing in the area on that day (with my kids) I would suggest it was entirely predictable?
- significant new snow (30-40cm) overnight
- very high winds
- avalanche occurred on short pitch of steeper terrain (35 degrees) in a wind loaded bowl
- forecast indicated cat-3 risk on that aspect and altitude
Yes, it was very close to the Grand Pre piste / lift.
However there is no such thing as a "little bit off piste" in Europe.
I believe the photo below shows a pisteur (on way to incident) about to trigger a 2nd slide.
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That was my photo and I witnessed the pisteur that you can see yes! Provided the data to data-avalanche for them to upload!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
What I’m finding a bit daunting about risk management in the avi realm is that it seems to me the variables and their degrees of freedom are much much greater than what I encounter in a riding environment, resulting in way more unpredictability, regardless of how careful you are.
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I'd disagree somewhat.
If you are skiing in Europe or n America the avalanche forecasts really do a very good job of highlighting the main issues. It's a big head start in what to focus on.
As I've said a few times on here, go look at the avalanche fatality reports. In most cases there were obvious red flags and/or some big mistakes made. Perfect example is in this thread with @Haggis_Trap, post explaining why the Val D'Isere slide could rather easily be predicted.
The number of cases where people do all the right things and are still caught out by something really unpredictable or difficult to assess is astonishingly low.
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lots of great resources both here and elsewhere on the web, so starting to seek it out and work on learning about it.
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The book staying alive in avalanche terrain is particularly good
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We are consistent @boarder2020, I wrote down the name Bruce Tremper and passed it to @Tom_Ski, .
We have skied a couple of days here in Jungfrau region, Tom is currently on his way home to San Francisco!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks, @boarder2020 - it’s a fair point. Speaking of Tremper, @RD, I was googling around to see if there was any risk comparison data looking at how back country skiing rates versus motorcycling or other activities. Turns out Mr. Tremper has written about this, citing data in millimorts (!). Have you seen this study? Some interesting links to supporting info, too. Article: https://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog/15826
From the article:
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| These numbers come from Bruce Jamieson’s 2009 ISSW publication where he estimates the risk and compares it with similar estimates from Werner Munter from Switzerland. You can watch a video of Jamieson’s presentation at http://vimeo.com/50900661. You should also look at the rest of their fine video presentations at the University of Calgary Applied Snow and Avalanche Research. http://www.ucalgary.ca/asarc/research/outreach |
PS - got home this evening from Zurich - back in California.
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
That was my photo and I witnessed the pisteur that you can see yes! Provided the data to data-avalanche for them to upload! |
Good photo! We rode chair above the debris on the same day with kids. Good education for them! Not a huge slide but big enough to cause someone some bother.
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