 Poster: A snowHead
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Not a telegraph reader but saw the headline and thought I'd have a nosey as it touches on a few topics that are ongoing discussion here.
Link with paywall removed (hopefully)
Interesting that there's an increase in incidents post-covid. Are people forgetting how to be around others? Or is there a demographic shift on the mountain? Thoughts?
A parallel observation: I've noticed that people are a lot less considerate on the streets and public transport (in London, so that's saying something) since lockdown ended...
Edit, seems the paywall cleaner has messed with the formatting and framing so the data isn't legible...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It would be interesting to see proper data. Maybe we just all forgot how badly some people can behave when we were parted from them so long? Maybe distance lent enchantment?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Please, please someone make it stop 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Whitegoldsbrother wrote: |
| Please please someone make it stop |
I have a mental image of you strapped in a chair wearing eyelid apparatus, unable to log out of snowheads. This thread is your chance to be re-educated @whitegoldsbrother, would you deny yourself this chance at redemption?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Thomasski wrote: |
| Whitegoldsbrother wrote: |
| Please please someone make it stop |
I have a mental image of you strapped in a chair wearing eyelid apparatus, unable to log out of snowheads. This thread is your chance to be re-educated @whitegoldsbrother, would you deny yourself this chance at redemption? |
Something like this?
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Interesting article, thank you. Worth listening to the experts … Val’s director of slopes and the head of Grenoble’s A&E.
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| Thomasski wrote: |
| Thoughts? |
Yes I'd say it is getting worse. The crowds have returned in a big way, piste prep and equipment is allowing really average skiers to achieve World Cup speeds they probably shouldn't be attempting, nobody seems to know or care about the FIS rules and, for whatever reason, maybe its helmets, people have a certain attitude/invincibility that sucks. The sport should have been getting significantly safer over the half century since it really took off, but it hasn't, far from it as far as I can see. Bring back moguls and ban helmets. Treat collisions like GBH, or manslaughter if it really goes Pete Tong.
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If this refers to number of serious injuries, shouldn’t the thread title be prefixed with “Breaking:” ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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was that written by a poorly trained ai-bot? annoyingly, I think I can relate to much of it, especially,
"Bonnevie’s main theory as to why ski crashes are on the rise is that modern skis have evolved too far to be used safely by beginners. ‘In the past, you had these big skis which were harder to turn, and so only skilled skiers could go on the black runs,’ he says.
‘Now, the material and design of the skis have evolved a lot, which makes them much easier to turn. This allows less competent skiers to go faster than their capacity, so you’ll see them zooming along the nursery slopes at much faster speeds than they should.’ Specifically the development of sharper edges has made skis easier to turn in the snow; sharper, lighter skis also allow a faster build up of speed."
But I've been thinking this for a very long time. Most of the rest of the piece is anecdote and twaddle.
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| Thomasski wrote: |
Thoughts?
A parallel observation: I've noticed that people are a lot less considerate on the streets and public transport (in London, so that's saying something) since lockdown ended...
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I've noticed the same with cyclists locally (France). They seem to cycle around like they cannot see any other users on the cycle lanes - Covid Blindness or something. There is also a helmet link with cycling.
Half the people also seem to use 10,000 lux LED lamps in town. I'm like this fella half the time. The other lot have no lights at all and then you have the 60kph fat bike crew.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I thought the article was awful aside from the comments from the professionals. A series of unconnected anecdotes and very little data to back things up aside from a headline number. That number, of course, is meaningless unless you know how many people were in the resort since any risk needs to be adjusted for exposure. Double the visitors and you’d expect to have double, or more, the number of accidents but the base risk is roughly the same.
Anecdotally, and I spent all of last December in Zermatt so I got to see very quiet and very busy periods, what appears to be happening is actually one of the conclusions the professionals reached … but with a critical addition. It’s piste dependent as far as I can see. There is far worse behaviour on the Blues and, as you go up the grading and then into itinerary runs and off-piste skiing it lessens very significantly.
I would love to see data on accidents broken down by the type of piste on which they occurred and, where available, the relative experience of the individual adjudged to have caused the incident. I would strongly suspect that the highest risk culprit is the intermediate skier, usually male, on a Blue (or easy Red) piste and going too fast for his skill level. When the skiing gets more challenging that slows them down. I’m talking generalities here, of course, and without any hard data to back it up. However, this is what I noticed.
Could be confirmation bias of course; I’m a motorcycle trackday instructor (as an amateur, not professional) and have observed that nearly all the accidents happen to individuals who are just starting to ‘get it’ and are therefore now going a bit too fast for their current level of expertise. The beginners and the experts crash far more rarely; the former as they know their ability level and are suitably cautious and the latter since they know what they’re doing and don’t get themselves into trouble.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I agree with the title of this thread that "pistes are getting more dangerous".
There are many reasons for this. One reason that I haven't seen mentioned so far is that pistes are getting more crowded. The reason for this is that ski resorts want to increase their income. Replacement modern ski lifts have much higher capacity compared to their older versions. The amount of accommodation in resorts has increased accordingly. However very rarely are new pistes created and therefore the existing pistes are more crowded.
The main responsibilty for safety is ours, individually. However resorts should also take some responsibilty for creating the situation which they ignore.
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Steve Angus has it in full on his Val D'isere blog if you want to read it. Not the best article ever written but I understand the theme.
It is probably true but I think post covid the selfish attitude that creates these accidents isn't exclusive to skiing. You can see it driving, cycling, in swimming lanes, walking down the pavement, even just going through doors (people don't pause/hold doors) and its not an age thing, it exists at all levels. Door holding/waiting is a personal bug bear and actually feel older people are the worst for this and also correlates to the social level of the establishment (another topic there).
Im not sure why but definitely a change in attitudes and general consideration of others since covid, the equipment issue possibly contributes but has there really been a giant leap in technology in the past decade that would drastically alter behaviour and ability?
I can't say I noticed a huge change in safety while I was on a recent trip to be honest, no close calls or witness to anything. Having an awareness of what is going on , conditions, congestion etc is as important as hoping someone else is in control and following the rules.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
people don't pause/hold doors
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Not sure I agree with that. I hold doors for people, and find they often hold doors for me. I have also been impressed (if a little depressed) on recent visits to London how many younger people leap up and offer me a seat on trains.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
pistes are getting more crowded
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@welshflyer, Hmmm, not sure I agree. Did you ski e.g. Avoriaz in Paris weeks in the late 80s?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| therock wrote: |
| ...I'm not sure why but definitely a change in attitudes and general consideration of others .... but has there really been a giant leap in technology in the past decade that would drastically alter behaviour and ability? |
I think you hit the nail on the head there - (I'm sounding like a real grump here but...) could it be the proliferation of social media and the "me" generation which is led to a change to a selfish, self-centered attitude in all aspects of life, where the individual thinks he/she's the most important person, with little consideration for others 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@under a new name, have you skied Avoriaz during Paris week recently?! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| therock wrote: |
Steve Angus has it in full on his Val D'isere blog if you want to read it. Not the best article ever written but I understand the theme.
It is probably true but I think post covid the selfish attitude that creates these accidents isn't exclusive to skiing. You can see it driving, cycling, in swimming lanes, walking down the pavement, even just going through doors (people don't pause/hold doors) and its not an age thing, it exists at all levels. Door holding/waiting is a personal bug bear and actually feel older people are the worst for this and also correlates to the social level of the establishment (another topic there).
Im not sure why but definitely a change in attitudes and general consideration of others since covid, the equipment issue possibly contributes but has there really been a giant leap in technology in the past decade that would drastically alter behaviour and ability?
I can't say I noticed a huge change in safety while I was on a recent trip to be honest, no close calls or witness to anything. Having an awareness of what is going on , conditions, congestion etc is as important as hoping someone else is in control and following the rules. |
This.
The lockdowns imho have left some with a I can do what I want attitude, **** politeness, manners, care about strangers or community. From memory I think there’s been talk of a rise in road rage. In shops or hospitality as another punter I witness middle aged or old blokes unable to say thank you or please, instead a rude I want. Perhaps an entitlement, “after the lockdowns I’m going to make the most of the rest of my life and **** anyone that stands in my way”. I road cycle a bit and know many others who do far more seriously, a few are giving it up in their 50’s after increasing brushes with cars/vans pulling out in front of them or driving too close, following literally by weeks in hospital.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I learnt something I didn't know from the article - that Flaine is, in fact, in Chamonix not, as I thought, an hour's drive away.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| johnE wrote: |
| I learnt something I didn't know from the article - that Flaine is, in fact, in Chamonix not, as I thought, an hour's drive away. |
I suppose cham is the closest big town, but yeah it's a little clumsy!
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I thought Bonneville was closer and where the case was heard. Geneva is bigger and about as close (by road) as Chamonix.
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These type of discussions seem to have been going on for years and years, from a personal perspective:
1. I don't think pistes are any more crowded, even with better lifts etc
2. Yes modern kit and well prepared pistes mean you can go faster, but not sure most people are
3. The biggest issue IMHO is people are skimping on lessons - once the basis are mastered people just seem to get out and go for it
4. I really think Europe needs to have Piste Patrol at busy points/times to stop and educate/remove pass those people who are skiing dangerously
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@Boris, Agree with all points - but also agree that I think the younger generation (perhaps post millennials) certainly seem to be more laissez fair about others in general.
That and possibly 'clicking' . . . . . . . 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There's definitely a trend to make the runs smoother, especially in the Italian resorts. Its a shame; for me, part of the attraction is trying to master the various piste types; to learn how to handle ice and slush, and it has the added bonus of slowing down the traffic.
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@Arno, I try to avoid the Paris weeks!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| therock wrote: |
Door holding/waiting is a personal bug bear and actually feel older people are the worst for this and also correlates to the social level of the establishment (another topic there).
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I agree, for 2 years we were told that we would kill anyone we touch or look at so it's difficult to get rid of that feeling. I often have situations where there is that odd feeling if I'm doing the right thing but holding door or picking up something someone drop (even if return it to the owner the feeling remains  ).
| Boris wrote: |
3. The biggest issue IMHO is people are skimping on lessons - once the basis are mastered people just seem to get out and go for it
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I don't agree, based on my "data", there are more instructors visible and it's more difficult to book an adhoc lesson than it was years ago. Parents have bigger pockets or/and less patience so they are more willing to pay someone else to give a proper lessons to kids.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowyc wrote: |
| therock wrote: |
Door holding/waiting is a personal bug bear and actually feel older people are the worst for this and also correlates to the social level of the establishment (another topic there).
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I agree, for 2 years we were told that we would kill anyone we touch or look at so it's difficult to get rid of that feeling. I often have situations where there is that odd feeling if I'm doing the right thing but holding door or picking up something someone drop (even if return it to the owner the feeling remains ).
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I guess there will be some people still in the 2 meter, wash your hand mindset but I think for the majority that was immediately forgotten about.
The door holding thing or lack of it also includes people that don't say 'thanks' when you have held the door. Part of the same mindset.
I don't even think its a manners thing, most of the time I think these people are just oblivious to the thought that it might be common courtesy (at least in UK) to say thank you. I know its not such a thing in certain parts of Europe, but just an example of a mindset change.
I also don't think its a generational thing either. I've noticed it across all ages and probably less so with younger people (under 18 ish).
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| Quote: |
I would strongly suspect that the highest risk culprit is the intermediate skier, usually male, on a Blue (or easy Red) piste and going too fast for his skill level.
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The American resorts stats can be found here:
https://www.nsaa.org/NSAA/Media/Industry_Stats.aspx
Doesn't count for ability, but yes serious injuries are overwhelmingly male. Intermediate groomed slopes and terrain parks are usual places. Which is saying something as some of the inbounds terrain (Corbet's Couloir, delirium dive, big Couloir at big sky, spankys ladder etc.) is rather gnarly.
I don't personally find a huge change in attitudes post COVID. I don't really think younger people are any more self centred than previous generations at that age. (In fact I'd be more easily persuaded that younger people today are if anything overly sensitive and more likely to consider others).
Better grooming, fast high capacity lifts spewing lots of people out at the top of slopes in a short period of time, and better equipment allowing people with lower skill to go fast. These all make sense to me - but I don't see how you are going to change any now nobody wants to go backwards.
Better resort design is definitely a thing. It doesn't take much e.g. I saw a pretty bad crash at at red mountain and within a day they had put some netting up to create a kind of chicane to slow skiers down and funnel them away from the intersection of 2 pistes. Also add a closed timed race slope for people that want to push the speed where they are only going to be a danger to themselves (you could even combine it with an educational element e.g. I remember seeing some resort where there was a speed trap, when you got your speed they gave you some education along the lines of how long it would take you to stop at that speed, how likely you would be to kill a child you crashed into etc. The people were quite alarmed to find out just how fast they were skiing and the potential implications). Perhaps adding freeride areas might also move some potential speedsters away from pistes.
Controlled slow area at busy points and obvious beginner areas also can work. However, they are only as good as the patrollers policing them. Seen too many cases of patrollers looking the other way as their friends or local legends blast through a slow area, and alternatively some power hungry patrol desperate to pull passes of people that are not really doing anything too wrong.
Something not bought up yet in the thread is the apps like ski tracks recording top speed. I think we've all seen people comparing who hit the highest top speed each day. Hard to think it's not encouraging some to push their limits somewhat.
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You know it makes sense.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Something not bought up yet in the thread is the apps like ski tracks recording top speed. I think we've all seen people comparing who hit the highest top speed each day. Hard to think it's not encouraging some to push their limits somewhat. |
I remember there being a correlation between cycle/pedestrian collisions and contentious Strava segments. Not hard to imagine people getting carried away with stat-sharing on the slopes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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So the danger is tangibly increasing every 15 years. Very interesting! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I can remember being in La Plagne in the late 80s. In our group were my 2 Sisters-In-Law, who were nervous early Intermediates. The general standard of skiing was awful. While waiting to make sure they were OK going down crowded sections towards the end of the day, I was regularly skied into, despite standing right at the edge of the Piste, in a place where I was clearly visible and not blocking anything.
There was a Father in our Chalet, whose teenage Son was taken out by a group of lads, while standing well back from the edge of the Piste near the Chalet. Both his legs were broken and he had to be helicoptered off the mountain. The French police started a criminal investigation....and it was believed to be a group of weekend French teenagers. I never heard the outcome.
Incredibly, I witnessed a young ESF ski Instructor knock a man clean out of his skis (probably late for a lesson). The Instructor put his head down and skied on. The man he'd knocked over was unsurprisingly furious and yelled angrily while trying fruitlessly to give chase on foot. I suspect the Instructor would have lost his job, if caught.
After that holiday, I decided that La Plagne - probably due to the amount of "Motorway skiing" - was just too dangerous and have (probably quite wrongly) avoided it ever since. I had previously been 3 times, with each time being a little bit worse than the last.
I very much enjoy the area, but always stay in Les Arcs. On the days I did cross over the Vanoise Express, it was fine...but was always in a quiet time of year.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| I can remember being in La Plagne in the late 80s. In our group were my 2 Sisters-In-Law, who were nervous early Intermediates. The general standard of skiing was awful. |
I got this far and thought "well yeah, it's la plagne!".
Some places are definitely worse than others - for the most part I find Austrian resorts have a much more respectful atmosphere, even St A with the party kids.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
I would strongly suspect that the highest risk culprit is the intermediate skier, usually male, on a Blue (or easy Red) piste and going too fast for his skill level.
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The American resorts stats can be found here:
https://www.nsaa.org/NSAA/Media/Industry_Stats.aspx
Doesn't count for ability, but yes serious injuries are overwhelmingly male. Intermediate groomed slopes and terrain parks are usual places. |
My suspicious is that women are the cause but men are victims.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've skied La Plagne a lot - never thought it was any different to anywhere else I've been - including ADH, 3V, Tignes and others.
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| Layne wrote: |
| I've skied La Plagne a lot - never thought it was any different to anywhere else I've been - including ADH, 3V, Tignes and others. |
Then your experience counts for more. A bad experience in a resort can certainly skew one's opinion of it.
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@Old Fartbag, I've only skied LDA for one day - and that was enough for me lol.
Not for the same reason obv.
Although if anyone has got a free holiday in LDA going, I am up for it !!!
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I have posted separately on this, but having skied for 40 plus years in Europe I am in agreement that the situation has got significantly worse. There are the really reckless idiots (they have always been on the slopes so no change there), but I have seen an increase in intermediate skiers who ski far too fast and are simply incapable of controlling their course or changing their direction to account for anyone else on the slope. Whilst there might be a few near misses I rarely see an issue with expert skiers moving quickly even if they are not being overly considerate to others.
The other group which seems to have grown more recently are the clueless beginners who are not in lessons, have never had lessons and are usually being taught by someone who also cannot ski.
You tend to rarely see these idiots on anything other than blues which is really annoying when skiing with younger children.
It is at a stage that I think the slopes should be policed in Europe, particularly France. As others have said my experience is that the situation is much better in Switzerland and Austria.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Layne wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, I've only skied LDA for one day - and that was enough for me lol.
Not for the same reason obv.
Although if anyone has got a free holiday in LDA going, I am up for it !!! |
I was there for a week and that was more than enough for me. 
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Would also add, in terms of severity of injuries, the weight and stiffness of some modern skis in the event of a collision is also likely to be a factor. I was genuinely shocked at the weight and robustness when I first got my Manta's and such skis are likely to cause more damage than older more flexible ones....(Love them though)
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