On another topic I reccommended openskimap.org as a souce of piste maps. The maps the supply quite a bit of information about the pistes plotted derived from the underlying topographical maps such as length, average slopes and steepest part of each piste. Being a nerd facinated by data I was drawn in to start researching the gentlest black pistes in Les Arcs. Beleive it or not some are quite gentle, for example the top half of Écureuils is only 26 degrees. Some such as Dou de l'Homme are quite steep at 40 degrees with an average of 20 degrees (there is quite a long run out). These feel abut right as Écureuils really feels like a red and Dou de l'Homme feels really steep.
However what really suprised me was just how steep some blue pistes can be. For example Mont Blanc in the 1600 sector has a steepest part of 24 degrees (degees not percent), which is probably at the left hand turn by the Deux Tetes. But the one that really caught my eye was Villaroger which is described as
Easy downhill ski run
Distance: 2534mAscent: 145mDescent: 255m
Average Slope: 3° (5%)Max Slope: 35° (70%)
I've never actually done it and TBH never felt like searching it out as I think it needs the Rhonaz lift to be open and that rarely happens but 35 degrees on a blue run! I think that would scare some beginners.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@johnE, I've done the home run to Villaroger many times, and even as an intermediate skier nearly 30 years ago it was never particularly intimidating. Max, or indeed average, gradients are a very poor measure of a slope's difficulty - all else apart there's no info about how long the steep section is, nor how wide and straight. I can't specifically remember any steep sections on that run, but perhaps on some of the corners there's sometimes a steeper bit for two or three metres depending on the snow.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
i'm a massive fan of openskimap.org and opensnowmap.org but you need to view some of the data objectively. It is created from topological models- what is their accuracy and resolution and from GPS tracks and overview, what is their accuracy and resolution. Both of these often throw up anomalies, steep sections and uphill sections. if the line track goes down the fall line it will show steeper than an actual route a skier would take.
@Chaletbeauroc, The profile show the steep section of about 200m, but you are right about the difference between steepness and difficulty rating of the piste with many blue pistes having some suprising steep sections and of course the red Claire Blanc is really steep at the top. Most of the time there is a good correlation but I just thought it fun to point out some of the annomolies.
Incidently, openskimap shows a fair hike up of 145m on the Villaroger piste but I cannot see that on the contours or really beleive it. This may be what is giving the suprising steep drop. This may be related to how openstreetmap derives its DEM, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Altitude.
I forgot to mention that being in a forest on the side of a mountain really plays havic with GPS readings
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@johnE, @hobbiteater, No, there is no uphill hike on that piste, so I'm frankly scepitical about the rest of the information from that source, including the gradients.
steep is usually countered by wide slope. You dont have to point your ski's down. You can traverse across the slope.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quite a few people have made similar observations. The data is not that reliable itself. Plus the difficulty of a piste depends on so many factors that this type of comparative data is not really very useful.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quite a few people have made similar observations. The data is not that reliable itself. Plus the difficulty of a piste depends on so many factors that this type of comparative data is not really very useful.
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@zikomo, the data is reasonable reliable, but you need to understand its limitations - its resolution. The use of the data in this application leads to interpolation errors.
@motyl, right click, or both click, pitch and zoom sort of things
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@hobbiteater, thanks
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I have to say that when I'm hiking or climbing I've found Openstreetmap data totally reliable. When I stopped and consulted my GPS while skiing I've also found it spot on. Like most GPS and satellite derived DEMs heights have less reliability than x,y data. This is especially true in forested and areas of rapidly varying heights. The maps compare very well with the 1:25,000 IGN maps
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Steepeness isn't the only measure of difficulty though. A 30° slope might be a black if it's also narrow but a blue if it's motorway wide.
Then again the 'easy route' to avoid a moderatly steep, motorway wide, perfectly pisted red will often be a shallower but rutted, icy, narrow blue cat track.
Oh, and of course a run might be classified black because the resort needs to have X number of black runs to keep attracking the ego skiers (who will reject a resort because it "Doesn't have enough black runs"...then ski blues all week and survive down 1 black each trip).
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The La Thuile piste map showed maximum piste gradient, length and start / end altitude a few years ago, which I found interesting. If memory serves, I think the piste markers showed the gradient too.
I’m yet to see another piste map that has this level of detail, anyone know why it’s not more common?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Mjit wrote:
Steepeness isn't the only measure of difficulty though. A 30° slope might be a black if it's also narrow but a blue if it's motorway wide.
Then again the 'easy route' to avoid a moderatly steep, motorway wide, perfectly pisted red will often be a shallower but rutted, icy, narrow blue cat track.
Oh, and of course a run might be classified black because the resort needs to have X number of black runs to keep attracking the ego skiers (who will reject a resort because it "Doesn't have enough black runs"...then ski blues all week and survive down 1 black each trip).
I hate, HATE, those bloody connecting narrow blues. Full of snow ploughing newbies and bare patches because no cannons. I normally avoid like the plague but was stuck with them last outing because of the newbies in the group.
Luckily they quickly cottoned on that the wide reds were far easier to manage.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Yep, one of the duties of the more experienced skier in a group is trying to presuade the less experienced people that the "easier colour" is not always the same as the "easier run" and often they would be better of on the main, wider "harder colour" slope than the "easier colour" cat track of death.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
I hate, HATE, those bloody connecting narrow blues. Full of snow ploughing newbies and bare patches
Agreed, inlcuding big groups stanging right across the piste and the ruts. The trouble is is that they are just linking route. They are not meant to be enjoyed just get you from point A to point B
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@johnE,
Quote:
Easy downhill ski run
Distance: 2534mAscent: 145mDescent: 255m
Average Slope: 3° (5%)Max Slope: 35° (70%)
Forgive me if I sound sceptical but...
Probably one of the steepest pistes I know of is the Diretissima in Kitzbühel, which is (or used to be) marked at the top as being 70% or 35°. It is definitely not a blue!
Another one is Harakiri in Mayrhofen, which is rated at 78% or 38° (has loads of YouTube vids of people sliding from top to bottom on their back bottom), also not a blue!
Using average slope would be a real kick in the teath for AdH and their "Worlds longest black run". I'm yet to be convinced the steep bit's actually a black, let alone the 12km that's almost so shallow it doesn't count as a green run!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Steilhang wrote:
@johnE,
Quote:
Easy downhill ski run
Distance: 2534mAscent: 145mDescent: 255m
Average Slope: 3° (5%)Max Slope: 35° (70%)
Forgive me if I sound sceptical but...
Probably one of the steepest pistes I know of is the Diretissima in Kitzbühel, which is (or used to be) marked at the top as being 70% or 35°. It is definitely not a blue!
Another one is Harakiri in Mayrhofen, which is rated at 78% or 38° (has loads of YouTube vids of people sliding from top to bottom on their back bottom), also not a blue!
I was going to say the same. Very few Blacks hit 35deg so unlikely for a blue!
Forgive me if I sound sceptical but...
Probably one of the steepest pistes I know of is the Diretissima in Kitzbühel, which is (or used to be) marked at the top as being 70% or 35°. It is definitely not a blue!
Another one is Harakiri in Mayrhofen, which is rated at 78% or 38° (has loads of YouTube vids of people sliding from top to bottom on their back bottom), also not a blue!
Yes, whilst I have been surprised a couple of times going back to the blue at the top of Palafour in Tignes (and I think it may well merit a red designation), Harakiri is very much in a different category. The first time I did it it went quite well - and I daresay even with a modicum of style (until I slipped) - and became one of those sliding all the way to the bottom on my back bottom (eventually slowing down by turning head down so I could drag my snowboard on the snow!)...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
What they call "mountains" is Austria, really are moles hills
For "real" mountains, and really steep slopes, you need to go to the western alps.
-Verbier, Mont Gele and Mont Fort
-Alpe d'Huez, piste du tunnel
And currently the steepest of them all: the "black wall" on Glacier 3000 is Switzerland.
The video of the "black wall" just makes the point of how pointless it is to feel the need to "do" a run. If all you can do is side-slip all the way down, what have you really achieved?
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I recall being at the car-hire desk in Salzburg airport, and a couple of ladies asked me and my mate where we were going skiing (everyone there was heading "somewhere"... obvious due to the boots/helmets/skis we were all carrying).
She: "Where are you guys heading?"
Me: "Schladming"
She: "Oooo. That's steep you know?"
Me: "Isn't that rather the point?"
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In 45 mins that will have softened up nicely and he would have been able to ski down instead
Now he’s got to go to the ski shop for his edges to get sharpened
The worst bit was the icy bumpy narrow cat track just before he took his skis off !
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@galpinos, Yes 35 degrees on the blue Villaroger piste is wrong and purely a property of the way it was calculated. However some blues have some suprisingly steep sections such as Mont Blanc in Les Arcs, but these are very short and have safe runouts. Though I've never done it Harakiri is a different kettle of fish as the steepness is sustained. And 30 degrees is steep, very steep.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
The video of the "black wall" just makes the point of how pointless it is to feel the need to "do" a run
Indeed. Not even particularly interesting scenery. Horrid snow at points, not to mention a walk at 1500m.
I never would have contemplated tackling that, but I do realise, just watching the video, that those "edges" and "drop offs" bother me a lot more now than they did when I was younger. But so does walking downstairs, come to that.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The snowcat driver must have been drunk. This is what a north-exposed run looks like, in April 23rd.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Onnem wrote:
What they call "mountains" is Austria, really are moles hills
For "real" mountains, and really steep slopes, you need to go to the western alps.
-Verbier, Mont Gele and Mont Fort
-Alpe d'Huez, piste du tunnel
And currently the steepest of them all: the "black wall" on Glacier 3000 is Switzerland.
That was exciting! Mind you I find watching flowers grow exciting as well.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Mjit, it's not necessarily about "ego skiers" but that a black run isn't an international standard but more a comment on the difficulty within resort. E.g within that particular resort the black runs are considered the most difficult ones. The same applies to mountain bike trails, so a black run in some forestry trail centre might be comparable to a blue run at a bespoke bike park
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
So where was the steep bit on that videoed run? I flicked through it a couple of times but couldn't see anything more than 70% or so, around 35 degrees, which doesn't even scratch any 'steep' itch. Must have been a very short part and I'm not going to study the whole ten minutes of video just to find it.
Anyway, the whole 'steep' and 'groomed' combination always seems a bit silly to me. If I want steep then I also want soft snow, and steep doesn't really count until it's well over 40 degrees in my book. There's one gully at the top of the Laub in Engelberg that's 60 degrees for around half a dozen wide turns, flattening out to about 45 deg for another dozen or so. Now that is fun to ski!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Old fart here (turned 58 last december) but still going strong, 110 kmh on the GPS
I have done almost all the "famous" black runs in the Alps...
The Harikiri must be one of the most over-rated ones. Big publicity - small, shortish run. Only suitable for bragging rights.
Now, compare that to the Tunnel in AdH, or the Grand Coulouir off Saulire (Courchevel) - both are official slopes.
But that's for pussies... when you look at Cheminees de Macle at Alpe d'Huez
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
SnoodyMcFlude wrote:
@Mjit, it's not necessarily about "ego skiers" but that a black run isn't an international standard but more a comment on the difficulty within resort. ...
I think you're right. I recall looking up the definitions before; it depends who you ask, so it's a bit vague.
"ego skiers"? I think "grades" are useful for novices to understand what they want to get into. Once that's not an issue, "what's in condition" matters way more. I mean: that card is easily trumped.
c wrote:
... the whole 'steep' and 'groomed' combination always seems a bit silly to me. If I want steep then I also want soft snow, and steep doesn't really count until it's well over 40 degrees in my book. ...
Indeed, but I guess people like different things. It's all good.
Onnem wrote:
110 kmh on the GP... I have done almost all the "famous" black runs in the Alps...
The video of the "black wall" just makes the point of how pointless it is to feel the need to "do" a run. If all you can do is side-slip all the way down, what have you really achieved?
it is so, however i have to admit that i belong to the group "have to do it"
Turning almost 50, i have to leave the snowparks, jumps and kickers (especially after a couple of accidents) so the only thing that i have to satisfy my ego and feeling that i improve my skills, is carving and black slopes
However because i dont want to go down a slope side - slip , i will not try it unless the conditions are almost perfect.
And that leads to the fact, that i am avoiding some ski resorts, because if i will go there , i would like to challenge my self to try the black slope, and if i didnt do so, or if i go all the way side-slip, i will be sad.
Thats why i avoid to book eg in Avoriaz
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Onnem wrote:
Old fart here (turned 58 last december) but still going strong, 110 kmh on the GPS
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