 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi, any advice on off piste safety packs?
I'm new to off piste and hesitating about shelling out for the whole gubbins, should I hire in resort?
What would that cost - I'm thinking 30 - 40 euros per day (transceiver, shovel, probe, backpack)?
Any help much appreciated.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Many thanks. Probably without airbag. I'm dissuaded from spending £300 or whatever on a transceiver when I read that they ought to be replaced every 3 -4 years!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/snow-sports/avalanche-deaths-airbag-transceiver-effectiveness/
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Two key studies from the Alps and Canada support their effectiveness: one analyzed 141 accidents from 1994 to 2003 and found that airbags decrease the chance of dying from 19 percent to 3 percent. The other analyzed accidents over nearly two decades and found that airbags dramatically reduce the chance of critical burial (head under the snow with airway blocked) from 47 percent to 20 percent. This is vital because 44 percent of people critically buried in a slide die (compared to just 3 percent of those who are partially buried).
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To explain further: I had my first lesson off piste last winter in Claviere.
The guide explained that I had to, by law, have a transceiver, shovel, probe. I asked whether this applied if I was only going off piste by the side of a piste just to practice as a beginner (i.e. no avalanche risk) and he said yes.
So ATM I'm just assessing whether to buy the basics or rent for the day or two (say) out of a week's holiday when I decide to go off piste in this very limited way. Hence I don't think I want the expense and load on my back of a bag and canister.
If I get better and more confident and get the bug this may change, of course.
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@Blast, Dont assume that the nice powder just to the side of the piste is "safe". There might not be as much risk as some rarely in condition couloir but it is still off piste and there is a risk of avalanche. The resort and piste patrol only secure the area between the poles everything else is at your own risk and you should take appropriate precautions (you might decide that the risk is so low that "appropriate precautions" are nothing beyond what you normally use for piste skiing but that is an individual choice)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Go anywhere but Italy then. I'm not against skiing off piste without safety equipment in areas that I believe there is no chance of an avalanche. You will progress much faster if you don't limit yourself to skiing off piste to the odd day when you hire gear.
The rules do vary even within Italy so it may not be the same in Aosta and other regions if you do want to stick to Italy
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@Blast,
Were you shown how to use the transceiver, shovel & probe? If you weren't then it was a waste of time giving you the gear.
If you're skiing off piste on your own, equipped with the "off piste" gear and you get buried in an avalanche then the gear won't save you because you are under the snow! You only ski off piste with a group who are all equipped with the gear and the knowledge how to use it.
If you are going to take up off piste skiing buy the gear and go on training courses to understand how to reduce the risks/dangers of avalanches and how to use the transceievr, shovel and probe to rescue someone buried in an avalanche.
Please do not go off piste skiing without the above because you could simply kill someone else by triggering an avalanche.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wondering if we should have a Snowheads kit loan system. My avikit gets used 3 weeks a year and I’d be happy to loan it for the off weeks.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@PBJ,
There is no point loaning out gear if the borrower doesn't know how to use it.
Transceivers from different makers are not standardised in the way they work. As I said there is no point having the gear without knowing how to use it and why they need it.
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There is what is right and proper. And then there is reality.
Lot's of people start dabbling off (the side of the) piste with no kit and not a great deal of knowledge. Quite often you will see ski instructors doing that with their school of students. Testing the water/snow, having a bit of fun. Should they do that - strictly speaking no. Are they even insured for it - in some cases not. But it's what happens.
And then, you find you quite like it. So you start to take an interest in understanding weather, snowpack, terrain. And you get the avi gear (bleeper, probe, shovel). But you are still an apprentice. As often gets mentioned. It's debatable as to whether lots of people can undertake a rescue in a real life scenario. But that doesn't mean you don't try to educate yourself and have the gear. It may still save yours or someone else's life.
Replacing your transceiver every 3 or 4 years. Yeah right. Do I look like I'm made of money. Airbag, ditto. Kinda. It IS probably advisable. And, yeah. actually I could make sacrifices/choices and afford it. But, well, maybe next year.
And the old veterans, the guys who live close to the mountains and can get on the pow every time it arrives. Do they do everything by the book. Of course they don't.
Everybody makes choices, risk assessments. It's easy to pick fault. But life isn't easy.
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You know it makes sense.
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| skimag wrote: |
| Like most electronics, the functionality of avalanche transceivers can waver and deteriorate over time. That’s why it’s a good idea to replace your transceiver every three to four years. |
I don't think that's true. There's some good stuff on product obsolescence, and what drives it, here. Transceivers simply do not magically cease to work 3 years into their life, that's is absurd. Electronic gear doesn't wear out the way those guys seem to be suggesting! https://beaconreviews.com/ is a better place to look at transceivers.
| Layne wrote: |
| There is what is right and proper. And then there is reality. |
Personally I think reality is right and proper. It's the purity spiral stuff which is wrong.
Has anyone ridden in Italy recently, and if so, can you explain how this "law" works in practice? It may help the OP.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@welshflyer, welcome to the real world … what’s the difference between loaned and rented kit ? Apart from loaned is cheaper so you might be able to afford the guide or lessons.
Nothing to stop people learning on loaned kit … and no real instruction that I’ve ever seen from guides who have loaned unfamiliar transceivers to inexperienced clients.
Also think at basic level most transceivers are similar to use … I’d be confident I could get a new model into search mode but I wonder how many users actually know how to use the advanced search modes in modern tech.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Of course there were loads of regular piste skiers going "off piste" at the side of the pistes - as there always is - with no safety pack. The guide was saying that I should always be wearing a safety pack even if that is all I was intending to do when on off piste skis without saying that the same should apply to regular skiers on carvers. Absurd on its face.
But anyway - my question was purely about renting a pack vs buying. Of course if I went proper off piste skiing rather than "off piste" skiing then I would learn how to use the equipment.
(As an aside, I emailed Nationwide travel insurance a couple of years ago as their policy states off piste is not covered unless accompanied by a guide. Fair enough but the policy documents do not define off piste. I could not get any sort of answer out of them. Deliberately vague I think. At the end of a piste when one poles to a lift or back to resort this is off piste if you define it widely enough so as to mean 'not on a piste'! So is skiing in loose snow just by the side of a piste (regardless of ski type) or falling in snow on way back to hotel covered by their policy or not? Dunno.)
To me, off piste skiing implies being well away from piste (with the risks that this entails) - a different discipline to piste skiing as we can all agree.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm not aware of a law to say you must have them, but I suspect from the context that it's a rule for mountain guided groups, which would make sense.
The key with your transceiver is to test it before use - easily done if you have more than one but otherwise... I do recall that some manufacturers/models, notably the Mammut Pulse ones that we have, can be checked and updated by the shop, but at your cost, so I've never done so.
Ours must be ten or fifteen years old by now but still work fine, for both send and receive. Although TBF I haven't checked them for a while - rightly or wrongly transceivers, shovels etc. are not generally considered as required by the qualified pros (e.g. the instructors with the full Swiss (Patent') around us in the PdS.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Blast,
A piste is delineated by piste markers on the left and righthand side! If you are 2 feet outside of the markers you are off piste and unless you have insurance specifically for off piste skiing you are NOT insured.
When you get to the bottom of the piste you are still on piste as long as you haven't skied outside of the piste markers. The reason the person at Nationwide couldn't answer your question about on and off piste skiing is because they are simply reading a script, they probably don't even ski.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There is no requirement whatsoever to replace transceivers after "3 or 4 years". That's absolute nonsense and the first time I've ever heard that after 25 years of off-piste snowboarding and many years of professional guiding! However, they should be serviced regularly to check everything is still working correctly. The service interval varies between manufacturers, but is usually around 3 years. This is pretty cheap (£25ish). Some brands can be serviced on the spot at specialist shops, others have to be sent back to the manufacturer.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Blast, if you intend to do any sort of off piste skiing (ie outside the marker poles) then it is unlikely the standard sort of holiday insurance will be appropriate, there are many threads around here on the subject but the options are more specialist "mountaineering" insurance such as that from the BMC, joining the Alpenverein (Austrian Alpine Club in the UK), Carre Neige in some parts of France etc. All have pluses & minuses. In my opinion any insurance that excludes unguided off piste skiing is not worth having, too many potential get outs for the insurer
Just because lots of others are skiing a particular patch of snow doesnt make it safe. I agree we all probably do it and in most cases it is absolutely fine but be aware.
In terms of hiring kit it would also depend on where you are going, if one of the areas with a lot of off piste say Arlberg or Verbier then many of the local sport shops will be set up to hire out suitable kit, somewhere more appealing to families & beginners might be difficult to find something suitable
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| welshflyer wrote: |
@PBJ,
There is no point loaning out gear if the borrower doesn't know how to use it.
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There’s no point selling kit if the borrower doesn’t know how to use it, either.
The key is learning how to use it, and practising until using it is second nature. It doesn’t matter whether the kit has been borrowed, rented or purchased.
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Totally agree … but it’s the user’s responsibility to learn how to use it … not the seller, renter or loaner’s
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| PBJ wrote: |
| Totally agree … but it’s the user’s responsibility to learn how to use it … not the seller, renter or loaner’s |
Exactly. I think your idea of a kit-loan pool is a good one. Speaking as someone who usually can't ski for most of February or March, I'd be delighted if someone else could get the benefit of my safety kit, even if it's just to try skiing off-piste (& with an opportunity to familiarize themself with the transceiver before leaving, rather than getting it from the hire shop or guide on the first morning).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've never had my transceiver serviced and don't intend to. It's 10 years old. I test it every year by burying it and then finding it with another. I've never heard of this nonsense before either.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Arva say for the Arva 5: "We recommend sending us your device once every 3 years for maintenance (and once every 2 years for professionals)."
I don't think most people do that though, relying rather on daily checks and regular practice to ensure transmit/ receive are working right, then switch models after a few years because something sexier came out.
Those who do get their transceivers serviced:
- Please can you tell us what they do to them? Do you get an MOT certificate with voltages and RSSI levels or something?
- Have you ever had a device "written off" or replaced/ repaired as a result of a service?
- How much do they charge/ what's the turn around time?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Scrunch77 and others - many thanks for all your help on this, much appreciated.
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@phil_w, I get mine serviced regularly. As a mountain professional, I'd potentially be in legal trouble if an incident ever occurred and a transceiver that I was using or that I'd given to a client had not been serviced according to the manufacturer's schedule. Mine are Barryvox. Mostly the new "Barryvox", one Pulse and I also still have an old Ortovox Patroller kicking around.
The Barryvox (Barryvoxes? Barryvoxi?) get serviced at a local shop. It costs about €25 per transceiver and they do it more or less on the spot. Cheap enough for one, a bit painful when you have 6.... The Ortovox has to go back to Ortovox (there's a webform on their site to book it in). Ortovox can be quite slow, especially around this time of year (6 weeks+).
Yes, you get an "MOT certificate" of sorts with various bits of data and a list of what's been checked. I have had one written-off. It was a very old Barryvox Opto 3000 (the one that had Burton branding once upon a time, eventually became Mammut). They wrote it off because the earphone jack wasn't working, presumably due to water/snow ingress. It was otherwise working ok and, like most people, I'd never used the jack and never had any intention to, but it was enough to decertify it. I still have it and use it occasionally for training sessions, kids treasure hunts, etc. and it still seems to work.
@nevis1003, You really should get it serviced. It's cheap and easy. Things can go wrong which are not necessarily easily spotted in a simple test. For example, transceivers have been know to have their transmitting frequency drift over time. One searching transceiver may have no problem finding it, but a different model might. In either case, it could significantly reduce the range. Similarly, one antenna of the 3 could be damaged (they're graphite and somewhat easily cracked). Again, you might not notice in a simple test, but it could have a big effect on search range and in the case of a deep burial.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks - that's kind of what I expected. I've never "serviced" my stuff, but I don't run old stuff long enough for that to be an issue. I do run it more than three seasons.
I just wanted to double check the concept.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Don't know if serviced by shop dealer includes other things but, with the Barryvox you can update to the latest firmware version by uploading it from another unit. So if your mate has a newer version you can upgrade yours from theirs. Fairly easy and the instructions are in the manual... Just make sure @ValDesire, isn't in the vicinity when you do it. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Blast, hire a professional mountain guide to get the most out of the mountains. They will provide the equipment you need for off-piste skiing. I would suggest you go to resorts with guided off-piste groups, some guides might even provide ABS packs, they will certainly provide you with the probe, shovel and transceiver often they will provide some training too. I would not be dabbling about on my own if I was you.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@adithorp, being serviced by a dealer is more than just checking you have the latest software version. They have a testing unit which checks the transmitting frequencies, checks all the antennae individually, checks the signal strengths, etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@stevomcd, ah, that makes sense.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I’m not going to suggest that anyone bins their beep after 3 years, but it is worth checking it from time to time, and keeping an eye on the newer models. I have a BCA Tracker 2 that was serviced for free a couple of years ago when it was sent in for a firmware update. It came back with a report that said it was fully functioning, but at 93% (or something). I have since retired it to a spare and now use the Mammut Barryvox (2022), which I took on an avi course last season. It was interesting to see the differences in search times between a) those who were using borrowed transceivers and those who had their own and were more familiar with them and b) those who had older vs newer models. The newer tech was incredibly fast during the search, and the interfaces were also much more intuitive.
And to those who still have ancient 2-antenna transceivers: put them in the bin and get your wallet out 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Blast wrote: |
(As an aside, I emailed Nationwide travel insurance a couple of years ago as their policy states off piste is not covered unless accompanied by a guide. Fair enough but the policy documents do not define off piste. I could not get any sort of answer out of them. Deliberately vague I think. At the end of a piste when one poles to a lift or back to resort this is off piste if you define it widely enough so as to mean 'not on a piste'! So is skiing in loose snow just by the side of a piste (regardless of ski type) or falling in snow on way back to hotel covered by their policy or not? Dunno.)
To me, off piste skiing implies being well away from piste (with the risks that this entails) - a different discipline to piste skiing as we can all agree. |
Not to hijack the thread too much, but my wife worked for Nationwide until four years ago - part of her job was negotiating their insurance policies with the underwriters. We have Nationwide insurance and, when we haven't supplemented it with cover through the AAC, she has been very clear that if we have an accident even one metre off the piste we won't be covered with Nationwide. (If your mate can drag you a couple of metres on to the piste on the other hand...). It may have changed since she left, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks.
That's what I feared - and what prompted my unanswered question to them. To most skiers, I suggest, off-piste skiing is a different activity to piste skiing, with more dangers, and insurers (should) rate policies to reflect those dangers (which of course we all know is avalanche risk). So now I know that for Nationwide at least off-piste means 'not on a piste' rather than 'off-piste skiing'. This renders their annual policy (£13 pm) inadequate for any skier IMO as we all dabble outside of the piste markers surely? Under this policy: go off-pisteing with a guide and you are covered but stray a metre off the piste without a guide (!) and you are not. The former has avalanche risk and the latter does not (ok negligible for the pedants out there).
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@whenry
you say you supplement your NWide cover - what does that mean? Surely the AAC cover is full insurance and so you are paying for the same thing twice. If you can get a policy which just covers what Nationwide does not that would be great.
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| Quote: |
Under this policy: go off-pisteing with a guide and you are covered but stray a metre off the piste without a guide (!) and you are not. The former has avalanche risk and the latter does not (ok negligible for the pedants out there).
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The latter does have avalanche risks, there are cases of people getting caught in slides while close to pistes. Its not just avalanches, but other risks outside piste e.g. rocks, trees, sudden drops etc. that are probably more of a concern for insurers.
Also I'm sure there are plenty activities considered safer with a guide. My insurance for example only covers top rope and sport climbing, but only multi pitch trad style with a guide. I don't think for a basic insurance not aimed at "hardcore" skiers expecting a guide for off piste skiing is unreasonable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Blast, look at it this way, being on piste/off piste is like pregnant/not pregnant. There's no such thing as a little bit of either. Insurance companies are pedants and you're either covered pr you're not; They'd rather not pay out if they can find a reason to avoid it.
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Yes indeed. I've come to the conclusion that standard travel insurance is inadequate for all skiers (cus who is only ever on a piste?) and buy that extra thingy in France (Carre Neige). I have a EHIC that doesn't expire until Nov 2025 (then there is the replacement).
In Austria: is extra cover needed from recovery from off piste? If so, Austrian Alpine Club membership.
What about Italy?
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FAQ
