Teaching turning

A snowHead

Help! I am training to be a foundation ski instructor to teach beginners and early intermediates on artificial slopes. Apparently the words pressure and weight can’t be used when teaching snowplough turns and plough parallel turns. Can anybody tell me techniques and appropriate words to use? Thank you Eh oh!

A snowHead

Who are you training with? Which ski instructor association?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Moyrajacques, Welcome to SHs.

How bizarre. Can't help. I'd be using those very words.

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@Moyrajacques, who told you that? but you can use stand on the outside ski I assume?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I asssume they've told you not to use those words to remove any confusion around technical phrases and new skiers? Not wanting to overwhelm them?

My go to when teaching snowplough turns is to get the client to imagine that their skis in the snowplough are like the end of an arrow, and all they need to do is point the arrow where they want to go.

I'd usually use the stitching in the matting as a reference point, and demo some small little wiggly turns either side of the stitching. Then i'd get them to try it. After they've tried it a couple of times, if they ask, i'll then start talking about leg rotation in order to steer the ski.

As they're getting better at that, i'll introduce cones in a straight line that they have to turn through, and then make that progressively harder by moving the cones to force them to make bigger turns.

Once they're making wider and better turns, we start working that up the slope. You might want to get them to imagine they have an orange under the ball of the foot, and as they're turning, they're trying to squash that orange on the outside foot, and that's the pressure element without using the word pressure.

As they're making nice, wide S shape turns, i'd then introduce some drills around getting weight on the outside foot, 2 hands on the outside knee, stroking/pat the dog, basketball drill, holding a pole across/down the hill etc.

That's getting the pressure and weight elements in to their skiing without ever saying those words, however, I disagree that you're not allowed to use the words. It all depends on the skier though, some want it simple, some like to understand the minute details.

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@swskier,

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

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@swskier, do not worry, I have had my share of Dendix burn in my time (though never Hillend thumb, thankfully, not for want of falling). They have som esort of matting on the Chamonix ski jump, oddly enough as the idea of landing badly on that Shocked

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@under a new name, i've done my left thumb twice!

That matting is probably the same as the jump in Innsbruck too. It seems quite different to dendix, almost like long hairs in texture, not the short firm bristles of dendix.

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@Moyrajacques, Why can't you use "pressure" and "weight"? Is it because there may be some vague reference to wellbeing/ discriminatory language?

In that case use "anxiety" and "body mass" instead.

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@Markymark29, I suspect it is to try and keep the language simple and non technical for nervous beginners....

Surely better asked in Bend ze Knees than here in forum tech.

You know it makes sense.

Hmm, seems unnecessarily restrictive. "Shins on tongues" seemed to help get 'em forward, that's all I have.

But since you are being asked to reinvent the language, please do your students a favor and don't give new names to left and right. Kids don't know L from R all that well to begin with, and adults are busy being scared; to then compound it (as was the case with one of my kids) seemed insane. (And use "correct", not "right", for affirmation).

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Scooter in Seattle,

A snowHead

Probably should be in BZK.

A snowHead

@Moyrajacques, I assumed you have a mentor at your local slope and you should be talking to them. There are several different ways to introduce turning and they don't all work for every beginner. I qualified with SSE and no-one banned those words but your local slope may have a reason for it. Good luck with your shadowing and try to work with as many different instructors as possible.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Moyrajacques, I suspect that the term "pressure" is removed and the correct term "force" used instead. Not sure why "weight" is not allowed.

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Don't worry, Esther McVey the shiny new Minister for Common Sense will soon sort this out! Toofy Grin

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

A ski instructor told my daughter to imagine there was a button under her left big toe to make her turn right, and one under her right big toe to make her turn left. All she needed to do was to press a button. It seemed to work for her for snowplough turns.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

@Richard_Sideways, Laughing

@Moyrajacques, Why not just point you feet where you want to go? It's what you would do when you walk. You will need to be able to be balanced on both skis, the outside/downhill one especially, but that skill can be developed once they've worked out how to go left and right a bit.

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Suspect this is to focus on teaching rotation first, which is certainly what the BASI central theme suggests. As they progress from wiggles to more rounded turns They can then feel the pressure through the outside leg doing more work, and from there can start to learn the role that pressure plays in turning. Rather than altogether skipping the concept of turning the feet.
That said it does seem a little prescriptive, as even if you always teach rotation first there are learners that ultimately need to be told to stand more on the outside ski if only to stop them standing more on the inside ski...

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Or on second thoughts if this SSE they just like to get really hung up on words.

Don't even get started on the word skill...
I get that it's important to communicate clearly, but if literally everyone tells you a word means something different from the very specific academic definition you've decided to adopt then I'd argue you're not communicating effectively.

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press & transfer of composition?

Emphasis

You know it makes sense.

Bit of a troll post, perhaps? If they were really doing am instructor training course they'd be provided with the suitable vocabulary.

This has been a BASI norm for a long time, and in truth the use of those words does have a history of causing confusion in some cases. In real life as an instructor I would still sometimes use them though, but not as the standard first way of explaining stuff, just if someone was getting something wrong and I could see why, and that this might help fix it.

The fact is though that for snowplough turns you really don't need to think about pressure and weight. Pressure building up is a factor in the plough-parallel, but care should be taken to avoid a student thinking that they should push to apply pressure when in reality it's an outcome of the other things that they're doing. Same with weight, if you start trying to explain weight transfer many people will think it means that they need to be managing that themselves and start pressing one ski or lifting the other.

So although I'm not always a fan of some (but not many, TBH) of the BASI teaching dogma, in this case I agree. Later in their progress is the time when weight and pressure needs to be understood, not on someone's early attempts to gain some control with a simple snowplough.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Topic moved to Bend ze Knees forum

A snowHead

It was only when I finally got tuition from instructors to explained where I was trying to get my weight and what part of my feet should be feeling pressure when that I finally felt I was getting the hang of skiing. I did (and still do) find the teaching method of asking people to push against their boots, stand up, etc. really frustrating, as you can do must of those motions without necessarily achieving the weight changes and balance that are important. If I know what I'm trying to achieve it all makes much more sense to me.

A snowHead

@sugarmoma666, good feedback and reinforcement that everyone learns in a way that suits them Eh oh!

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Teaching turning

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