 Poster: A snowHead
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Has everybody known about this? It looks like significant news to me.
It seems Gore Tex is moving away from its original product ePFTE fabrics on environmental grounds and will instead be using ePE ( Polyethylene based ) which is what the competing manufacturers have been using for many years.
Apparently the replacement fabric was introduced into some of their main customer brands last year and the plan is to switch pretty much all its consumer fabrics away from ePTFE by the end of 2025.
This from a press release two years ago: https://shop-eat-surf.com/2021/09/gore-introduces-new-gore-tex-products/
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| Products featuring Gore’s new ePE membrane will be introduced in a selection of consumer- end uses including general outdoor and lifestyle garments, lifestyle footwear and snow sports gloves from select customers including (but not limited to) Adidas, ARC’TERYX, Dakine, Patagonia, Reusch, Salomon and Ziener. |
This from gore https://www.gore-tex.com/sustainability/protect-the-planet/reduce-chemical-impacts
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The original target for completion of the elimination of PFCs of Environmental Concern from its consumer Fabric products is the end of 2023. Gore Fabrics is proud of the significant progress we have made on this journey with significant changes in DWR chemistries, supplier engagement and alternative materials developed.
Despite Gore Fabrics’s focus and progress to date, it is now clear that completing the transition of its entire portfolio by the original target date will not be possible due to product development and scaling challenges. Gore Fabrics is still fully committed to the PFCec-Free goals, and now is on track to transition the vast majority of its consumer portfolio by end of 2025. |
I've always thought of Gore Tex as being the best there is but now I have to wonder if it's going to be exactly the same as all the rest.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 7-11-23 12:00; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yeah it;s the end of ShakeDry completely as there is no way to make it now which is a shame but understandable as they try and align their business to the climate/environmental grounds.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I've always thought of Gore Tex as being the best there is
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As did many people. It's called marketing. Plenty of other great performing materials.
Any jacket with 20,000mm waterproof (I could even argue less) and large pit vents is more than adequate for 99% of the people 99% of the time.
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@olderscot, This is old news, the cycling world has known for some time that the clothing is going to change and what was the standard lightweight waterproof fabric is no longer available. I cant remember the exact technical details but basically the older material no longer complied with current environmental regulations. There has been a certain amount of whinging from the pro peloton over the fact that the replacement clothing wont be as good (waterproof, breathable, aerodynamic or whatever).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This goes into lots of detail from a particular manufacturer’s point of view
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/gear-30/id1308460981?i=1000628838321
Sounds like their issue is that the new membrane will need more care and maintenance. Not feeling like I need new outerwear right now so I’m happy to see how it develops.
Interesting on that podcast how widely DWR is used for somewhat dubious applications so it certainly seems good that that will stop
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I bought my first Gore-Tex based mountaineering jacket back in the 80s and have had many since. For the last 10 years, I have been using kit by Kuiu, a maker of lightweight hunting gear out of The States. It uses Toray Dermizax NX fabric and have been blown away by the durability and performance... Have never got wet when I shouldn't have and never had condensation issues, can't say the same for ANY Gore-Tex gear I have had over the years. Will need to look at some new gear in the new year ready for the Alps in March. Eying up the Stellar Equipment stuff out of Sweden which uses the same Toray Fabrics... Fabric technology has moved on over the years, Gore industries are effectively still using the same tech they were in the seventies, albeit with more modern face fabrics.
I think this is a good thing, not only from an environmental perspective but it might also break Gore's strangle hold on the market, something, it seems, more to do with marketing and heavy handed industry practices than quality of product. From experience and in my opinion, there is far better out there and has been for years.
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I have a Phenix jacket that has dermizax as a membrane and it is amazing.
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Does anyone know what the real alternatives to GoreTex are? It seems that every other High Street shop has waterproofs with an own-brand fabric claimed to have similar proofing and breathability properties to the original GoreTex, but I can't imagine for a moment they all have their own research labs creating new fabrics; I had rather assumed there was one major "generic" manufacturer making less expensive fabrics based on GoreTex's expired patents, and the only thing that differed was the branding.
However @vipa66 and @GlasgowCyclops suggest there are genuine competitors in the market with their own innovative fabrics, but only for a few niche brands; I would have thought anyone putting the money into the necessary research would be pushing to get their fabrics adopted by at least some of the high sales technical brands.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The jackets I have had (for hillwalking and skiing) in event fabric have always performed better than the goretex ones .
I think event disappeared off the market some time ago for some reason . Most "own brand" fabrics are very good now, having brought their own version of a near 40 year old product to production.
Not sure how breathable it is, but the Black Diamond Recon shell I have has the most obvious water-beading dwr I've ever seen.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I had an expensive Burton shell jacket a good while back. Some high end Dermizax supposed goretex alternative, the fabric leaked after about 9 months. The sleeves leaked within minutes of it raining, soaking through the fabric. I’ve mainly stuck to Goethe’s since.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@rogg, "Goethe's", not sure how you managed to type that! Did Schiller make a waterproof fabric too?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 9-11-23 22:26; edited 1 time in total
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Good video, and imv absolutely right.
I used to cycle to and from work almost daily for several years. I tried gore Tex gear, as did most regular cyclists.
It becomes apparent very quickly that - as the presenter explained - gore Tex is waterproof or breathable.......but not both.
In the end, I just used clothing that allowed me to be suitably warm or cool for the time of year, and had a cheapo waterproof from decathlon stuffed in the bag for deluge days.
I also have a Gore Tex jacket that I used for hillwalking.....once  it is amazing at keeping me dry on the walk to my local pub, but up a rainy hill? Nah, too sweaty.
The best waterproof item I own is my old carradice saddle bag, cotton duck and has never leaked........wonder if they make jackets?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Does anyone know what the real alternatives to GoreTex are?
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Don't worry about trying to understand materials. It's mostly advertising hype. Just look at the measured waterproof rating. If it's 20,000mm it's highly waterproof (again, I'd argue you could go lower and still be fine). As for breathability, none of the highly waterproof fabrics are *that* breathable. Big pit zips are low tech but a much more efficient solution.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| j b wrote: |
| @rogg, "Goethe's", not sure how you managed to type that! Did Schiller make a waterproof fabric too? |
Hmm, my spellchecker doesn't seem to like Goretex.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I find in most cases, the need to stay "dry" is secondary to the need to be comfortable and safely warm .
Unless you're wearing the waterproofs over a suit to go to work there's little or no need to be absolutely dry in general wear.
Ensuring the dampness whether from water ingress or sweating is taken off the skin and you stay safely warm is far more important.
@GreenDay sweating your way up a rainy hill isn't the fault of the jacket....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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goretex is overhyped anyway, there are plenty of good alternatives out there, goretex is well marketed and has good advertising, and thats why it sells well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Roguevfr wrote: |
I find in most cases, the need to stay "dry" is secondary to the need to be comfortable and safely warm .
Unless you're wearing the waterproofs over a suit to go to work there's little or no need to be absolutely dry in general wear.
Ensuring the dampness whether from water ingress or sweating is taken off the skin and you stay safely warm is far more important.
@GreenDay sweating your way up a rainy hill isn't the fault of the jacket.... |
I appreciate you are making a comment on my fitness or otherwise !
However the point made in the video is that the way the jacket operates in real life is not how it is advertised - i.e. if you just sit in the rain it will be waterproof, and if you walk in the dry it will be breathable.............but (according to the film but reflected in my experience) the way the material works dictates that warm moisture from your body will struggle to escape in a jacket which is also repelling rain from the other side.
What they say (and I agree with this) is that an honest assessment wouldnt be the Gore line "Waterproof and Breathable", a more honest assessment would be Waterproof or Breathable.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| GreenDay wrote: |
| Roguevfr wrote: |
I find in most cases, the need to stay "dry" is secondary to the need to be comfortable and safely warm .
Unless you're wearing the waterproofs over a suit to go to work there's little or no need to be absolutely dry in general wear.
Ensuring the dampness whether from water ingress or sweating is taken off the skin and you stay safely warm is far more important.
@GreenDay sweating your way up a rainy hill isn't the fault of the jacket.... |
I appreciate you are making a comment on my fitness or otherwise !
However the point made in the video is that the way the jacket operates in real life is not how it is advertised - i.e. if you just sit in the rain it will be waterproof, and if you walk in the dry it will be breathable.............but (according to the film but reflected in my experience) the way the material works dictates that warm moisture from your body will struggle to escape in a jacket which is also repelling rain from the other side.
What they say (and I agree with this) is that an honest assessment wouldnt be the Gore line "Waterproof and Breathable", a more honest assessment would be Waterproof or Breathable. |
This is true but I think we all know it. If a jacket wets out the breathability drops to zero. I think this would be true for pretty much every membrane type fabric.
For me what's more annoying is the DWR changes. A good few years back DWR worked, and seemed to last for ages before needing a reproof/recoat. IIRC the DWR used was a fairly un-eco chemical and was changes to a more acceptable one. Only problem is it didn't work as well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| GreenDay wrote: |
| What they say (and I agree with this) is that an honest assessment wouldnt be the Gore line "Waterproof and Breathable", a more honest assessment would be Waterproof or Breathable. |
For *ME* with layers, Goretex does breath and keep me dry, even when walking up big hills!
I wash it/reproof as necessary and ensure water beads on the material (This is key in my experience as wetted out jackets don't work) , and I've run in a cycling "shakedry" that also didn't leave me clammy wet as I would have been in something non breathanble.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rogg wrote: |
This is true but I think we all know it. If a jacket wets out the breathability drops to zero. I think this would be true for pretty much every membrane type fabric.
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That's arguably true - however, the areas that generally "wet out" ie top of shoulders / upper front of chest area/ sleeves are also points where less sweat vapour is produced to be transferred through the fabric, lack of breathability on the upper back is more often due to a combo of wetting out and wearing of a rucksack. So it's possible for the usual areas to be "wet out" while warmer sweatier areas of the body are still perfectly Breathable through the fabric.
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DDP
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 12-11-23 15:05; edited 1 time in total
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DP
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've got plenty of Goretex Pro and as an allround 'everchanging conditions' shell system its arguably the most sensible choice . . .however I run hot and need to dump heat a lot of the time so given the right conditions (and choice) and for 80% piste bashing I'd wear (and have historically worn) softshells everytime . . .far superior ventilation and heat control / hardwearing - the only time it fails is in heavy wet snow / the dreaded rain and when you need to sit down at lunch!
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Good video, I can agree with his finding about Goretex, after having it in numerous products I've found it pretty mixed, some things seem OK but others have been a real disappointment. I'd never buy Goretex gloves again.
As a motorcyclist a known issue is if you use heated grips in the rain it draws water into the glove through the Goretex, so it's either cold dry hands or soaking wet warm ones......just great.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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FAQ
