 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi, I am currently a year 12 student from NSW and for my HSC Design and Technology major project, I am thinking of solving the problem of riding the T-bar with children or with someone with a large height difference by making an adjustable t-bar where you can change the heights of either side, which can accommodate for the height difference. Any feedback, improvements or any general comments would be much appreciated and if anyone would benefit from this idea, it would be great if you could reply!
Motivation for my Project Idea:
During a recent snowboarding trip to Perisher with a family friend and his 5-year-old daughter, I observed a challenging situation involving the T-bar ski lift. Due to most lifts being on wind hold, the T-bar was the only available option for ascending the mountain without the need for hiking.
The inherent issue lay in the substantial height difference between the 5-year-old child and the adult. In this particular scenario, the adult had to bend uncomfortably low and apply considerable force on their side of the T-bar to prevent the child from being lifted into the air on the other side. Simultaneously, they had to maintain their own stability while ensuring the safety of the child throughout the ride. Unfortunately, despite their best efforts to avoid these challenges, the journey was marred by discomfort and, at times, even resulted in the child falling off the T-bar, posing a genuine risk of injury.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As a traditional T-bar is in constant motion, having time to adjust a bar to a different height may be problematic from an operational perspective.
Think of something that you can retrofit to any bar, that can be understood and used quickly - and without any particular intervention from the liftie.
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Got bored in a meeting... starter for 10
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I cant imagine how you'd make it possible to adjust in the seconds available at the start, able to reset itself after use and robust enough to survive the release at the top.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
As a traditional T-bar is in constant motion, having time to adjust a bar to a different height may be problematic from an operational perspective.
Think of something that you can retrofit to any bar, that can be understood and used quickly - and without any particular intervention from the liftie. |
There don’t seem to be many t-bars around and I can’t claim full knowledge but the ones I’ve come across release from the cable and grip when the skier triggers it. Not sure if that’s going to be a help or hinderance for this project.
But even then the above is correct that there is little time to deploy or fiddle about with some adjustable adaptation.
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Could not have placed this in a better place "bendz ze knees"
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If the kids on skis I put them on my leg instead of making them use the bar, i put the bar between my legs and the kid is then on one of my legs, i've always done it like that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kids go together and lifties marshall them on in pairs to avoid empties, adults/ people of similar heights same - job done and zero cost. Or replace the whole lift with a chairlift (or more likely these days a 6-8 person gondola so all can be kept dry and cozy) at huge cost. T-Bars have worked for decades, its a non-issue.
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The only T-bars I've used have been on glaciers - and my understanding is that because glaciers move, other kinds of lifts are not practicable. I agree with @Markymark29 that optimum useage requires some organisational input from the lifty.
Where I've used T bars (notably Tignes and Les Deux Alpes) the kids have been race training and hugely competent. The way they deliberately and competently "gate crash" a T bar going up empty, or with one person on, is worrying for the rest of us.
On one steep and tricky T bar in Austria, years ago, I was with an instructor and because there was no "easy way down" if we fell off, the instructor organised competent locals to go up with us and keep us on! Worked perfectly.
I have had no problem at all getting on T bars. Getting off them, on the other hand........ 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
I have had no problem at all getting on T bars. Getting off them, on the other hand........ |
I've experienced this from others on quite a few occasions, although usually with relative beginners. Two common faults: either they let go too early, before they're on the flat, and slide backwards or they don't want to let go at all. The latter is strange and not restricted to beginners, now I think about it. I've had quite a few cases where I've been repeatedly shouting "Let Go" to students who've maintained an iron grip on the bar.
We still have quite a few on the Swiss side of PdS, but due to their relative scarcity in France in particular it's not unusual for even quite experienced skiers to struggle the first time the use one.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You need to agree with your copilot who is going first - and where. The problem, sometimes, is that once the first person lets go, the curved bar of the T grips you every more firmly, needing a decisive shove to get rid of it. And the pointy bit can get caught in a loose jacket.
I once rode a T bar with a coach for the French men's A team. No problem getting off that time!
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For less competent or confident t-bar users, simply place your hand on the small of their back and give a push when it is time to unload. This has the benefit of ingraining in them that momentum is required when getting off t-bar.
Personally I will choose a slop only accessed by a t-bar over other options when available. I don’t at all kind riding them, there tend to be less people, and a higher standard of slope user.
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You know it makes sense.
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| ster wrote: |
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
As a traditional T-bar is in constant motion, having time to adjust a bar to a different height may be problematic from an operational perspective.
Think of something that you can retrofit to any bar, that can be understood and used quickly - and without any particular intervention from the liftie. |
There don’t seem to be many t-bars around and I can’t claim full knowledge but the ones I’ve come across release from the cable and grip when the skier triggers it. Not sure if that’s going to be a help or hinderance for this project.
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That's true for a lot of button lifts, but most of the T-bars I've encountered don't do that, presumably therrisk of them getting tangled would be considerable.
For this project, I could envisage easily enough something where the T would be split, each side of the cross-piece moving independently of the other, but I cannot begin to imagine how you'd then balance the two skiers, and their skis would be at different points, pushing and pulling at odds with one another; and that's just the start. It's bad enough for an instructor taking a small child or worse, a huge galoot, up a T-bar and having to steer and balance for both, but at least if you're right next to them you can exert some control over their movements. SO I doubt if it would get beyond the theoretical stage, TBH.
As for racers hitching a lift with someone who's decided to ride solo, I recall the first time this happened to me, in Tignes, some many years ago when I was on a course. I was a late intermediate at the time, probably a 3 on the scale where a 6 is an instructor level, so not phased by much, but the particular racer that joined me a couple of metres after the start had no arms! He was perfectly balanced and dismounted before the very top leaving me to my own devices, so not a problem, but I was certainly not at all sure what to do until he did.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@talacysea, yeah, I'm afraid it's not a huge problem and a (Europe at least) reasonably rapidly disappearing one.
When I started skiing as a kid in Scotland I probably rode my first t-bar - which were ubiquitous - aged about 6? Adults would run their bar low on their legs and I'd have it behind my shoulders. Now, mostly relatively short lifts and relatively gentle gradients, but no big issue then.
I do recall in the late 80s shops selling a weird side mounted disk affair so snowboarders could more easily ride button lifts?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@under a new name, was that the one where you could turn your front foot 90 degrees? Saw that or something similar again a year or so ago as an aid to skating.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Can't see how you'd mod a T Bar. The only obvious variable might be to widen the Ts and the track so that riders skis didn't clash or their boot buckles catch each other ( very disconcerting when you lose autonomy over your own leg).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| The only obvious variable might be to widen the Ts and the track so that riders skis didn't clash or their boot buckles catch each other. |
Most racers have good alignment so their boots and skis don't clash with the other user of the T Bar.
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@talacysea,
It seems the consensus here is that you are looking for an ingenious solution to a problem that has a much simpler solution. My advise would be save yourself a lot of grief and chose a different project 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Richard_Sideways, sat by your side on your hip so boarders could go up sideways.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
Got bored in a meeting... starter for 10
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why would you need a toilet roll on a t-bar? SOunds chilly and indecent 
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@jedster, Ironically, to prevent fouling... a retractable tape or belt reel is less likely to get caught than a cable.
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@Richard_Sideways, Thanks! I was thinking of something similar to that as well, however, my concerns for that is the child might end up too far behind the adult and would thus be hard to manage.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Markymark29, That may work for very young skiers, but for really young snowboarders (like 3-5yrs), especially those learning how to ride a t-bar (we have a lot of them in Aus - mostly at Perisher), it usually ends in disaster...
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@Richard_Sideways, I was thinking of making something that the lifties would just have to pull on one side and push on the other, with a lock clasp near the bottom middle (where the t would separate) so it would be quick and would not require constant stopping and starting of the t-bar. (I would send a very bad diagram I drew, but idk how to add photos on here...)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In Scandi there are many T- bars. I had never a problem with my very short daughter.
Just turned the T-bar xx degrees to make it fit us both.
Sometimes a bit low for me but manageable.
It is operator problem more then a technical problem.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| talacysea wrote: |
| @Richard_Sideways, I was thinking of making something that the lifties would just have to pull on one side and push on the other, with a lock clasp near the bottom middle (where the t would separate) so it would be quick and would not require constant stopping and starting of the t-bar. (I would send a very bad diagram I drew, but idk how to add photos on here...) |
I understand the concept but foresee many problems, some of which have already been covered. Might work at loading but would be a very vulnerable device at the top where it would cartwheel all over the place (potentially dangerously) as it retracts and regular breakages would be expected. Would add quite a lot to costs- installation and maintenance.
I would recommend the KISS principle =Keep It Simple eg as it is at present.
You have to be a supersnowHead to post photos.
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hahaha, all I can say to this thread is 'good luck to the little guy' because they are gonna have that T-bar on their shoulder blades.
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You know it makes sense.
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The usual tactic for this is to NOT put the Tbar between your legs. Let it sit on your rear hip. You can then twist the Tbar so that one side is high and the other low.
OR
Adult rides the Tbar as normal (T between legs). Kid goes in front of the T with it against armpit or shoulder and a lot of help from the adult.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stevomcd wrote: |
The usual tactic for this is to NOT put the Tbar between your legs. Let it sit on your rear hip. You can then twist the Tbar so that one side is high and the other low.
OR
Adult rides the Tbar as normal (T between legs). Kid goes in front of the T with it against armpit or shoulder and a lot of help from the adult. |
99.99% of adults can't ride a T bar like that ! If you do then the kid can be on your leg (Left or Right, your choice) and use that like a long t bar - works fine after a bit of practice and more comfortable for both participants. Shove the kid off at the top and get the T out quickly !
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stevomcd wrote: |
The usual tactic for this is to NOT put the Tbar between your legs. Let it sit on your rear hip. You can then twist the Tbar so that one side is high and the other low.
OR
Adult rides the Tbar as normal (T between legs). Kid goes in front of the T with it against armpit or shoulder and a lot of help from the adult. |
Nobody, I mean nobody, rides a T-bar with the bar between their legs. I mean, how would you? Even if you could, how would you get off it at the top?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Hyst, Yes, that's pretty much SOP for boarders, sure, but is not a) what I understood by "T between their legs" nor b) relevant for skiers with smaller co-riders as per this discussion.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I know! But could not resist. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hyst wrote: |
In Scandi there are many T- bars. I had never a problem with my very short daughter.
Just turned the T-bar xx degrees to make it fit us both.
Sometimes a bit low for me but manageable.
It is operator problem more then a technical problem. |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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T goes behind shorter persons bottom and on thigh of taller person. There is a lot of time to get into position as the T is on a retractable reel (unlike Poma buttons). Some T bars pull lifts alternate between a T and a retractable button to accommodate this issue or beginner singles. Done this many times with my kids and never an issue.
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@Chaletbeauroc, the OP mentions snowboarding, not skiing..... and that's what we always mean by T between the legs....
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