I'm planning a quick trip to St Anton in mid-December.
One of the reasons I want to go there is because they have the so-called "ski routes". If I understand correctly, those are off-piste areas that are marked and monitored, in theory, safer than a regular off-piste run you would do in the wild. Am I correct?
If so, does this mean that in those marked runs, there will be a lower avalanche risk and no crevasses or tree wells?
I found some videos that show exactly that... somewhat of an easier/"safer" way to do off-piste.
Do you think it would be okay to do those runs without avalanche gear? I see they have the "ski routes" and "extreme ski routes", I plan to stick to the regular ones, not the extreme ones
If you have been in the area, which runs do you recommend that are good and not too hairy?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Been there a few times in the last years and done some of the red ones, they are avalanche controlled and no tree wells or crevasses.
Some of them are even bashed,Madloch for instance.
You don't have to use avalanche gear but things can always go wrong and would be wise to carry it (a couple of years ago a pisteur died when an avalanche reached the piste in Crans Montana I think). I take mine hoping I will never need it but wishing to be of assistance if sh_t hits the fan.
The only concern is what will be open ski route wise that early in the season, mid December. 66 from your first video will probably be OK.
In January 22 we took 136 from the top of Trittkopf to reach Zurs faster. Small icy moguls useful only to show you which dental fillings need to be replaced ASAP..Wasn't fun or instructive, just unpleasant skidding.
Soft snow makes them worthwhile and maybe you can get there a month later, it's an amazing domain.
Better ask on the Arlberg forum on SH, you'll get more answers from the regulars.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 5-10-23 19:30; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@AndreSilva, The answer is yes they are safe and no you dont need avi kit but... There is an issue of how the ski routes are defined, historically a number of the routes were black runs but were changed to ski routes to make managing the resort easier for the lift company. As you have noted there are two gradings shown on the map by either red diamonds (the regular ones) or by black diamonds (the more difficult ones). The routes themselves are marked by a line of poles (seen on the videos). The routes are secured along the line of the poles, which is fine but the definition is rather hazy. Mattun shown in the second video is a perfect example. The route runs through a wide bowl (there is a second one - Mattunjoch, from the opposite side). The terrain is pretty much the same throughout the bowl with steeper lines available at the sides. The best or easiest route may well not follow the poles (again obvious from the video) and few people actually follow them. How secure is the rest of the bowl? Despite their black grading neither route is that difficult, more that once you start the only way out is getting to the end and it is a long way for someone who discovers they are out of their depth, there can be some pretty big moguls. The chances of finding untracked powder as in the video are small it will be tracked out within a very short time. The first video is much more representative of the sort of conditions you are likely to find, you need to be able to control your speed in variable snow conditions and be a vaguely competent mogul skier. Some of the most popular runs are pisted in large parts (eg Madloch, Schindlerkar even Langerzug despite it being steep). No crevasses or tree wells.
So yes a good halfway house between on piste & off piste though you will be lucky to find many of them open before New Year
Many of the routes are unlikely to have sufficient coverage in December to be open, let alone enjoyable to ski. Sharks will abound.
As pointed out above, some are pistes, but not called that, eg Madloch to Lech and Langerzug. Some can be quite tough, like Tannegg, and a range in between, like Oschenboden or Mattun.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
In January I accidently skied the skiroute 170/170 from Madloch above Zurs to Zug. I only realised I wasn't on the piste I thought I was until I got to Zug and had to look at the map to see where I was. In my defense if was very foggy at the top of Madloch and I just followed the crowd. So in short, that particular skiroute was almost identical to a piste.
... So yes a good halfway house between on piste & off piste though you will be lucky to find many of them open before New Year
That's exactly what I'm looking for! A place where I can build up confidence in a safe manner.
Like the other guys mentioned here, indeed December might not be ideal for powder
I'll do a 1 week off-piste course in Verbier in January, I would like to have some warm up before that, so mid-December sounds good, but I forgot about the potential lack of snow.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@rdk, your story does not make sense really. Which piste did you think you were on? Because there is no piste to Lech/Zug, only groomed skiroutes. As is clearly signed in the skimap...
After all it is free
After all it is free
@AndreSilva, you still might be lucky, and a huge snow dump comes before mid-december. Just wait and see, no need to book anyway.
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@Langerzug, he probably continued forward when he got off the new Madloch chair, it starts wide and white
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Langerzug wrote:
@AndreSilva, you still might be lucky, and a huge snow dump comes before mid-december. Just wait and see, no need to book anyway.
Indeed, I'll book around 1 week before, that way I can track the conditions
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
munich_irish wrote:
@AndreSilva, There is an issue of how the ski routes are defined, historically a number of the routes were black runs but were changed to ski routes to make managing the resort easier for the lift company.
So there are skiroutes changed into pistes to make it easier for the lift company. And then they started grooming other skiroutes??...To make it more difficult for the lift company?
I have been coming to the Arlberg since 1992. I do not know of any major pistes changed into routes since then. The only real change was the Galzig-Kandahar, which used to be a red piste in 1992, and was turned into a black piste shortly after that.
Madloch was groomed already in 1992.
Madloch will probably be turned into an official piste in 2024/25 by the way. Major reconstruction works announced for next summer. Permits are ready.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Langerzug, Why doesn't it make sense? The plan when I caught the lift was to head back down the red towards Zurs. By the time I realised I wasn't on that piste it was of course too late, and when I got to the bottom of the skiroute at Zug I had to consult the map to work out where I was. Staying in St Anton I had no intention of skiing to Zug so hadn't even looked at that part of the map.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@rdk, on the other hand wasn't it a lovely ride?
It is worth doing it again in better conditions.
At some point you could turn right to another ski route (red 173) that takes you right into Lech close to the supermarket.
I am always carrying a backpack, best shopping trip ever.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rdk wrote:
@Langerzug, Why doesn't it make sense? The plan when I caught the lift was to head back down the red towards Zurs. By the time I realised I wasn't on that piste it was of course too late, and when I got to the bottom of the skiroute at Zug I had to consult the map to work out where I was. Staying in St Anton I had no intention of skiing to Zug so hadn't even looked at that part of the map.
Makes perfect sense. In poor visibility, unfamiliar with the area, it would be so easy to drop into the Madloch-Zug run. Heck, I have managed similar detours, despite skiing the Arlberg for 20 years, eg coming back from Valfagehr, finding myself at the load for Arlenmähder, and having to do it all again.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@rdk, your explanation does not make it sensible for me. Instead of returning in the direction of where the lift came from, you went in the opposite direction, over the ridge and around the corner...
And not studying a map in a large skiresort like Arlberg is no very sensible either, is it? Not meaning to go to Lech clearly was not a good reason to not have a closer look...
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Poster: A snowHead
@Langerzug it was foggy, before heading up the lift I saw there was a red heading back, paid no real attention which direction and off the lift just followed the crowd. What, do you think it didn't happen and I'm the only person in the history of skiing to find themselves on a run they had no plan of being on? No one else ever has a day skiing a large resort with no real plan and just heading on whatever lift looks interesting? And thanks for publicly accusing me of lying.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@rdk, Where am I saying you were lying? I'm just saying you were acting silly, on several accounts.
And in my dictionary silly is not sensible. And maybe you felt a little silly in Zug too? Just a bit maybe, please?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@rdk, @Langerzug, doesnt always get the right end of the stick, your account makes perfect sense. The top of the Madloch run looks exactly like a piste and the first section is pisted (to allow skiers to build up enough speed to overcome the rise before the small col) so perfectly understandable that you unintentionally ended up in Zug.
It is a shame that the run is going to be turned into an official piste with all the snow making kit etc that entails, though it is likely to be open for longer periods as a result.
Ski routes / yellow routes are offpiste for scaredy-cats
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The last 3 years I have skied in the Val d'Isere region the week before Christmas and it was the best snow of the year for off-piste. Not sure how it compares in St Anton then - I have only been in early January.
As @munich_irish said, the ski routs were all originally pistes and were just made into ski routes so they were able to open them more without worrying about being sued if it wasn't adequately pisted in the way people expect now, and someone hit a stone or something.
Some are great for skiing 3D snow of fairly reasonable steepness instead of staying on the piste but get tracked out very quickly (ege Mattun/Mattuinjoch, easily accessible quickly from St Anton). Don't expect fresh tracks on these for long after they open. I wish I'd stuck around St Anton and done a few of the red ones on the morning I had fresh snow, rather than heading round the resort to do some in Lech and arriving to find them long tracked out. It was probably worth it for the early run down Ochsenboden though. Some are very steep eg the entry to Ochsenboden and the reputedly very steep Langerzug (I didn't make it there). Expect some slight uphill sections and careful navigation may be required if mist descends. Some feel like a black piste (eg 86 down Schlindlerkar) and are pisted, or even a red piste (Madloch) which does make me slightly anxious that doing 1 might lead someone to thinking, done 1 can do them all, and landing themselves in a situation where it is very challenging to get out. The variation in severity and difficulty is huge and dependent on snow conditions as well as terrain. Just because it is open, doesn't mean doing it is a sensible idea at times.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Interesting thread with @Langerzug arguing about something that really doesn't matter to demonstrate some superior knowledge about his favourite corner of the Arlberg. To me it doesn't matter. If it's groomed like a piste and has punters like a piste the fact that it may be administratively a skiroute is of little concern to anyone.
I've always found skiroutes in the Arlberg disppointing because of the skier traffic effectively making them skier packed pistes very quickly.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Dave of the Marmottes, thank you for the compliment.
@munich_irish, my point indeed is not the unclear grooming situation of Madloch, my point is that I'm not buying it that you can 'just like that' decide to go into Madloch whilst you meant to go back to Zürs, and present it as perfectly sensible behavior. And blame it on the grooming.... It is not. @rdk, was not paying attention, just following the masses and had not studied the map. And went over the ridge, around the corner and in the opposite direction of where he came from, and he meant to go back to.
Silly, just silly.
With such silliness he might just as well -just a few yards further into Madloch, decided no to follow the route to Zug, but to go left into Stierloch, and get into real, fatal, trouble....
But no, instead of admitting he was silly, we are going to present the Madloch situation as generally dangerous, for everybody?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Looking forward to another season’s worth of this
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Valluga,
Heh.
Langerzug could start an argument in an empty room…….
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Langerzug silly is such a strong and strange word, it's regrettable...
I still remember my first ski weeks, studying FatMap's piste steepness trying to decide if I can do that red or black because the steep part is rather short and followed by a loong run where I can slow down and be back in control.
Taking lessons and skiing more weeks got me to a happy place where I can go on piste anywhere and even if I'll take a wrong turn and get on a more challenging piste or on a red skiroute I will still be able to cope with it without being silly. Just stretching my abilities Mia Khalifa style.
And that's what probably happened there.
rdk didn't go off piste or beyond resort's boundaries backcountry etc.
The nasty surprisingly unbashed long black piste that returns from Vizelle in 3V (Pylones) at the last EOSB was more challenging than any red skiroute towards Zug and Lech from Madloch. But doable albeit Khalifa style (in my case).
Wrong turns on piste are still on piste.
[PS if you need to Google, I'd rather not ]
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